Las Vegas shooting thread moved to polyass

[summit]

Not to the extent that cars are. In your example of someone stealing a car, the chain of ownership is easily followed, right? Operating a car also requires a license, the car itself needs to be licensed, training, and insurance while commercial trucks require additional licenses, insurance, regulations, weigh stations, etc.

You have created a false requirement. Put another way, your argument is guns aren't as regulated as cars, therefore you should go to jail if someone steals your gun, sells it to another criminal who uses it on a crime. The latter does not follow from the former. It is a characteristic form of illogical knee jerk draconian specail case for guns that are counter to the rest of the American system.

[Buster Highmen]

Going out of Glendive MT, a rusted Detroit boat veered over to the shoulder, a gargantuan behemoth of a station wagon. It sat low on it's springs and blew blue. Jon and I jogged up and looked in. In the passenger seat sat a grizzled lank guy about 45 or fifty. At the helm sat an old hooker with spackled kohl and maplike eyepaint.

"We're going to Williston, then North she said. Jon and I ran back, grabbed
the stash cans, duffles and skis and loaded in andcarved off into the early night.

Ka-keeeek/chunk...ka-kreeeeeek/kachunk closed the doors. Metallic stale
cigarette smoke, faint waft of pot and piles of beer cans. Lucky lager.
Ripped vinyl seats, foam stuffing flecks, candy wrappers old newspapers.

The tank crawled back onto the freeway, wheezing and rattlings in vague
threats of failure. Masses of rusted plates clanked and the paintchips
strained at holding the car together.

Jon sat behind the driver and I sat behind the passenger.

"Thanks for the ride" said Jon in an uncharacteristically loquacious
mien. "Yeah, thanks" I echoed.

All that day, the drivers who had picked us up had mentioned how dangerous
hitchhiking had become, a few seasoning us with tales of murders, rape
and robbery. While we knew that these things were a remote possibility,
I always dismissed them to the back of my mind. Denial is such a powerful
coping mechanism.

The woman asked us where we were going. Again Jon spoke up.

"Madison" he said and then offered the driver and passenger some of our
crummy weed. I thought this was really weird for Jon, but I suspected that
he was a little uneasy, as was I. The guy in the passenger slumped and
mumbled and appreciative response, so Jon twisted up a quick reefer.

We passed the joint around, our benefactors greedily sucking on the joint.

Then for some reason, Jon again began to thank them for the ride.

"Yeah" he continues, "we got a lot of flack about how dangerous this is
and stuff...so thanks for picking us up. We're not any trouble..."

At those words, the passenger whipped around and pointed a .45 handgun
about and inch from my face.

"Trouble?" he uttered, "we're ready for trouble..."

Never in my entire life had my cerebellum and my cerebrum been at such odds. The smooth muscles of my sphincter and the gorge of my
throat clenched in a frenzied effort to expel all matter from their respective caches.

Meanwhile, what little shred of presence of my mind remained desperately
clung to the old fashioned notion that soiling the car with shit and vomit
would not be well received.

Then the guy gave me a toothy smile and put the gun down chuckling.

I looked at Jon who now had a goggle eyed look of abject terror. I mouthed
"Shut the fuck up" at him. Of course, I was at a complete loss for what to do.

The old guy handed me the joint. I told him my name. He told me his name was Mike. Then he offered us beers.

My hands were shaking uncontrollably. I still thought I was going to puke.
I took the beer as calmly as I could fake, ripped it open and chugged down
as much as I could. I have never been a beer drinker, but I thought if I
could make my throat consume something, it would lose the notion of purging.

And so began a long sling into the night. I figured honesty was the best
policy, so I told the old whore and Mike that we were headed to Madison to
try to score some good hash.

In reciprocity, Mike told us that he had killed a guy in Michigan and had
been hiding out in Wyoming for a couple of years and was nearly arrested,
but shot the officer trying to cuff him. They were now on the run to North
Dakota where they could hide out for a while.

My attempt at honesty made me feel a little better for a while. I couldn't
figure out if they were just pulling my leg or if they were really telling
the truth.

In any case, for hours in that backseat I would be randomly seized with an
overwhelming panic that at any moment, we were going down some side road and someone would find our bleached bones years from this night of stupidity.
Fatigue and fear kept me awake as the four of us shared pot, beer and
cigarettes into the American night.
It was a long ride that night, both literally and
figuratively. Looking down the wrong end of a large
handgun has had a lasting effect. Since that night,
playing honestly, looking directly into the moment
became a maxim and a goal.

Mike and the old hooker, who never did tell us her
name, dropped us off in Williston and motored off. I
can't say if I'd ever been more relieved.

Sticking to I-94 was part of the strategy, but figured
we could find a place to crash somewhere at the UND
Williston campus since we did get a decent ride.
Little did we realize how different a world this was.

We dragged our duffles and the skis a couple of miles
over to the campus. To our surprise, the place was
locked up tight. Every student we saw, when
approached, ran off and hid, pulling curtains and
closing doors in their wake.

Exhausted isn't a sufficient word for the way I felt:
hung with weight, depressed, confused and leaden.
Exasperated, Jon and I wandered into a field near the
dorms and collapsed. We each pulled out the blankets
Doc had given to us and rolled up in it
out in the field. I passed out.

Then something woke me up. I didn't really understand
it at the time and I was so dog tired, I just wanted
to sleep some more, but something wasn't right. I
listened. Nothing. I couldn't see anything unusual and
my mind bounced back and forth between
going back to sleep and trying to figure out what the
matter was. I thought that maybe I had to piss or
something, so I sat up.

Then I fell over.

I sat up again and again toppled over, scraping my
face on the brush and rocks. I began to realize what
was going on. My arms were useless, limp and numb. My
legs were numb.

At that moment, I knew that I had to get up or I was
going to freeze to death. I felt warm and tired and
just ached to lay back down and forget about it. But I
knew if I did, I'd die.

So I began to flop. I thrashed. I raked my face
several times across the scrub and stones in the
field. I flapped my arms for aeons and finally they
came back with that wretched electric tingling. Then I
could at least sit up
and use my arms to steady myself while I kicked the
blood back into my legs. That also took an eternity,
but finally I was able to stand up and stagger over to
where Jon lay.

I toed Jon several times, eliciting a stream of dopey
verbal abuse. "Get up" I said "get up, Jon, we're
freezing to death".

Jon sat up about to give me the what for and promptly
fell over. The next time I saw his face, I could see
the terror on it. I watched him thrash and buck the
blood back into his system until he could get up.

We didn't talk much, but with the temperatures in the
teens, we knew we had to get inside. So dragging our
stuff, we sluffed into the town looking for a place to
get warm.

...

[MultiVerse]

You have created a false requirement. Put another way, your argument is guns aren't as regulated as cars, therefore you should go to jail if someone steals your gun, sells it to another criminal who uses it on a crime. The later does not follow from the former. It is a characteristic form of illogical knee jerk draconian specail case for guns that are counter to the rest of the American system.

I have? Comparing cars and trucks with guns is your analogy isn't it? Also, please quote my post where I wrote that, "therefore you should go to jail if someone steals your gun." Where's the, "illogical knee jerk draconian specail case for guns"? Didn't I simply ask the following:

I'm not sure the repeated analogies to cars and trucks makes sense. Aren't cars and trucks heavily regulated in America? Are you proposing that guns are similarly regulated?

[ill-advised strategy]

meh, it's all for you guys.

MS has been in the background of my travels for a long, long time...all the way from stupid usenet bullshit with Scott Abraham to the ski shop in Taos to the fire crews.

It's been a long, long...strange, strange trip.

From living in a place like Taos, where guns are integral and feel necessary; to living in a place like Victoria BC where guns are foreign and feel absurd....I can say the major difference, to me, really doesn't seem like a difference in policy, it seems like a difference in the social fabric. Like, the thought of shooting a person is completely out of the question in one place, and completely on the table in another. That, to me, is what we're up against.

[summit]

I have? Comparing cars and trucks with guns is your analogy isn't it? Also, please quote my post where wrote that, "therefore you should go to jail if someone steals your gun." Didn't I simply ask the following:

I'm not sure the repeated analogies to cars and trucks makes sense. Aren't cars and trucks heavily regulated in America? Are you proposing that guns are similarly regulated?

Your are being intentionally obtuse.

[MultiVerse]

Your are being intentionally obtuse.

Not at all. I'm genuinely confused by your repeated analogies to cars and trucks. Aren't cars and trucks heavily regulated in America? Are you proposing that guns are similarly regulated?

[summit]

Not at all. I'm genuinely confused by your repeated analogies to cars and trucks. Aren't cars and trucks heavily regulated in America? Are you proposing that guns are similarly regulated?

Obtuse and making assinine rhetorical questions... Clearly not interested in honest debate.

[Buster Highmen]

meh, it's all for you guys.

Then fucking get on the stick and publish that shit.

...

. Like, the thought of shooting a person is completely out of the question in one place, and completely on the table in another. That, to me, is what we're up against.

Yup. I have always had to deal with guns with my mind and I'm really glad I didn't have one at points because it would have made shit a lot worse.

[Meadow Skipper]

BH and i-as are making this thread shine unexpectedly.

[ill-advised strategy]

Agree...
Podcasts at the very least.

You can hear my npr storycorps thingy if you want:

https://cpa.ds.npr.org/wnmu/audio/20...c_-_prog_2.mp3

https://cpa.ds.npr.org/wnmu/audio/20..._21_160824.mp3

[Game Over]

You have a way with words Buster. Thanks for that bit

[MultiVerse]

Obtuse and making assinine rhetorical questions... Clearly not interested in honest debate.

honest debate? Aren't you just hand waving away questions that you'd rather not answer?

[basinbeater]

You have created a false requirement. Put another way, your argument is guns aren't as regulated as cars, therefore you should go to jail if someone steals your gun, sells it to another criminal who uses it on a crime. The latter does not follow from the former. It is a characteristic form of illogical knee jerk draconian specail case for guns that are counter to the rest of the American system.

No. You frequently hear that a gun is just a tool from gun advocates. If you lose your cordless drill, consequences are low. If you buy a tool designed to kill, and lose it? Well you done fucked up, and someone may end up dead due to your irresponsibility.

[Conundrum]

Equating cars to guns, as has been gone through many times already, is not a fair comparison. Cars have productive value, and are used in a way to give benefit to people. .

If gun owners want to compare guns to cars, I'm okay with that. Let's treat them the same. To operate a gun anywhere in public, you need to be a certain age, take certain classes to learn how to operate it safely, register it on an annual bases and be able to provide proof that it's registered if requested by law enforcement, in certain circumstances, have it inspected, you have to be licensed, you have to carry liability insurance for any damage you cause with your car, only operate it where the law allows, only be able to operate the type of gun you are licensed to and if you want to operate a bigger or riskier gun, obtain further education, licensing, taxation, and insurance.

Yes, please, keep comparing guns to cars.

[muted]

A friend of mine hung out with NRA nerds for a week, he was told being able to own a gun is a right you were born with, and driving is an earned privilege. Did I get that right?

[digitaldeath]

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...3172649AAYpXD7

[Conundrum]

A friend of mine hung out with NRA nerds for a week, he was told being able to own a gun is a right you were born with, and driving is an earned privilege. Did I get that right?

That's the NRA's argument because of 2A. I'm only pointing out that a common example gun advocates give is that cars kill people just like guns do. My personal opinion is that we can use that comparison if we treat guns like cars. I'm a gun owner-I own a number of guns. I would be fine passing education classes, training, registering them, and placing liability insurance on them. Those thing don't infringe my rights to own the guns. All comes down to interpretation I guess. We have a right to bear arms to form a well regulated militia. Seems like a "well regulated" militia might have some regulations attached to it.

[summit]

honest debate? Aren't you just hand waving away questions that you'd rather not answer?

I fail to see how I am obligated to defend against your disingenuous bullshit

[Mazderati]

That's the NRA's argument because of 2A. I'm only pointing out that a common example gun advocates give is that cars kill people just like guns do. My personal opinion is that we can use that comparison if we treat guns like cars. I'm a gun owner-I own a number of guns. I would be fine passing education classes, training, registering them, and placing liability insurance on them. Those thing don't infringe my rights to own the guns. All comes down to interpretation I guess. We have a right to bear arms to form a well regulated militia. Seems like a "well regulated" militia might have some regulations attached to it.

How do you feel about banning handguns?

[Grape_Ape]

There it is - sig worthy, bone-headed stupidity. Very instructive, just in case any of you are considering further debating with BD.

Yep. As suspected, BD is just mentally slow. He's one of those guys (mostly republican) who poo-poo things until that thing affects HIS life.

Just look at his existence as a used car salesman. What a waste...but at least he makes a shitload lying to people!

[summit]

No. You frequently hear that a gun is just a tool from gun advocates. If you lose your cordless drill, consequences are low. If you buy a tool designed to kill, and lose it? Well you done fucked up, and someone may end up dead due to your irresponsibility.

Can you please cite other examples of this?

[Buster Highmen]

You have a way with words Buster. Thanks for that bit

I wrote a story about hitchhiking with skis across MT. Shopped it to Stump. No luck.

[muted]

Why aren't there a bunch of people trying to get bombs legal again? Bombs don't kill people, people kill people. Bomb people are always the marginalized ones I think. Never mind the nuclear bomb people, those poor bastards.

[MultiVerse]

I fail to see how I am obligated to defend against your disingenuous bullshit

I'm sorry that you feel that way. Conundrum in the posts' above has done a good job addressing the comparison of guns with cars... I don't know, it seems like a reasonable topic of discussion, not disingenuous at all.

[Buster Highmen]

We have a right to bear arms to form a well regulated militia. Seems like a "well regulated" militia might have some regulations attached to it.

You. Stop making sense, now. Damn conundrumists.