Las Vegas shooting thread moved to polyass

[basinbeater]

Sweet. Can you point me in the direction of one I can buy, that was made after 1986?

That right there is proof that gun control works. Cause you could probably find a machine gun to buy, but it would probably cost several thousand dollars, not four hundred.
I don't think all guns need to go away, but a registration system certainly needs to be put in place, and as nearly every gun enters circulation legally in one way or another, there should be a law that says, if you own a gun, and lose track of it, and it ends up being used in a crime, you go to prison for 10 years. No ifs ands or buts. That alone will make the price of things on the black market go through the roof, thereby reducing the use of guns in violent crime.

[ill-advised strategy]

Why would it be wrong to mimic Australia's approach?

[mtngirl79]

I don't think there is much to stop these types of killers, as Mofro said.

That is not really what not to said...

[Bobby Stainless]

That right there is proof that gun control works. Cause you could probably find a machine gun to buy, but it would probably cost several thousand dollars, not four hundred.
I don't think all guns need to go away, but a registration system certainly needs to be put in place, and as nearly every gun enters circulation legally in one way or another, there should be a law that says, if you own a gun, and lose track of it, and it ends up being used in a crime, you go to prison for 10 years. No ifs ands or buts. That alone will make the price of things on the black market go through the roof, thereby reducing the use of guns in violent crime.

I think some things need to be added to the Class 3 list.

Machine guns, other than MACs and Ruger 556s, are 15k+, but they are still available. The guy I mentioned previously, has two belt fed M60s (100-150k each)

Why would it be wrong to mimic Australia's approach?

Just the state of California, has 15 million more people than all of Australia. That could be one hurdle.

[Bobby Stainless]

That is not really what not to said...

I really don't see any real way that any SINGULAR event could could be stopped by a dedicated perp. But having nationally consistent gun laws, eliminating loop holes for background checks, and cracking down on the 8% of gun dealers responsible for feeding the majority of the cross state black markets (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ocon/guns.html) doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

What did he say then?

[Buster Highmen]

It's nice that gun death trend is going down in the US. But it's still too high. Ridiculously high.

From http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/03/americ...ics/index.html :

0) Americans own around 48% of the estimated 650 million civilian owned arms in the world,
1) Americans owns more guns per capita than any other country.
2) America is about 5% of the world population, but accounts for more than 31% of global mass shootings.
3) Gun homicide rates are 25.2 TIMES higher than in any other high income countries. That's 2520%.

Are we really a nation wringing our hands and whining about any change to gun control really what we're about?

I thought we were a country that embraced taking chances to fix things.

Like starting a business, it's fucking terrifying, but we never get anywhere without taking some risk for positive change.

The thing is that gun homicide rates are 25 times higher in the USA than other "high income" countries.

So, if one was to give countries a score from 0 to 100, the USA is 1/25th of that score.

Assume the average score is 75%. That means the USA gets a 3.

So I don't get why improving our score from 3 to 4 or 5 is worthy of mention let alone significant, especially in light of the event.

There's a bunch of potential reasons for the improvement: better access to birth control, lowering of lead in the environment or better social services.

Who knows.

But insinuating, by including a graph of new guns, that it's due to the number of firearms hoarded by some statistically insignificant portion of the population is questionable if not again irrelevant.

[Meadow Skipper]

I don't think that death should spur people to act on a cause. That seems disingenuous.

There it is - sig worthy, bone-headed stupidity. Very instructive, just in case any of you are considering further debating with BD.

[Buster Highmen]

There it is - sig worthy, bone-headed stupidity. Very instructive, just in case any of you are considering further debating with BD.

I'm not so concerned about the person as the idea. But yeah.

Hey, we got our patent on high fidelity digital recording. w00t!

[summit]

That right there is proof that gun control works. Cause you could probably find a machine gun to buy, but it would probably cost several thousand dollars, not four hundred.
I don't think all guns need to go away, but a registration system certainly needs to be put in place, and as nearly every gun enters circulation legally in one way or another, there should be a law that says, if you own a gun, and lose track of it, and it ends up being used in a crime, you go to prison for 10 years. No ifs ands or buts. That alone will make the price of things on the black market go through the roof, thereby reducing the use of guns in violent crime.

That's asinine. If someone steals my car and uses it to rob a bank or run over innocents i don't go to jail.

[Adolf Allerbush]

I don't agree with knee jerk reactions, based on emotion.

How does anything you posted, explain away that theory?



Sweet. Can you point me in the direction of one I can buy, that was made after 1986?

Nor do I agree with knee jerk reactions...implementing some sensible gun control regulations would be anything but knee jerk given the history of gun violence and mass shootings in this country. Do you agree?

As for what I posted explaining away your theory, I thought it was somewhat obvious. If you only include gun violence/death statistics from 3/4 of the 2017 year then you should expect it to be less in comparison to 2016 gun violence/deaths. You're saying, and i'm paraphrasing, "gun violence/deaths is/are trending down, look at 2017 vs 2016". In addition to the multitude of points made by Buster, and many others in this thread, just the fact that you're not including a full year of statistics when comparing back to 2016 is not on the level IMO.

I haven't shopped for a machine gun, well ever, so no I cannot. What's your point?

Just the state of California, has 15 million more people than all of Australia. That could be one hurdle.

So why would that make Australia's approach to their gun violence issue not work in the U.S.?

[ill-advised strategy]

Just the state of California, has 15 million more people than all of Australia. That could be one hurdle.

So the efficacy of the laws depends on the size of the population? Why couldn't a law apply equally to a town of 50 people or a nation of 1 billion? Laws don't scale?

[wooley12]

To BD, death is a foreign concept and has no reality in his mind. He writes so much without offering anything of value to escape the reality he doesn't want to face. The numbers of dead can only be real if he actually spoke with the victim before they were shot and then went to the funeral. Some people are like that.

[basinbeater]

That's asinine. If someone steals my car and uses it to rob a bank or run over innocents i don't go to jail.

Equating cars to guns, as has been gone through many times already, is not a fair comparison. Cars have productive value, and are used in a way to give benefit to people. Guns, particularly assault rifles and hand guns, are made for killing people.
But a rule like this would punish straw buyers who buy a gun legally and then "lose" it by selling it to someone who then uses it in crime.

And if you don't want to go to jail for having your gun used in a crime, lock the fucking thing up.

[Adolf Allerbush]

Equating cars to guns, as has been gone through many times already, is not a fair comparison. Cars have productive value, and are used in a way to give benefit to people. Guns, particularly assault rifles and hand guns, are made for killing people.
But a rule like this would punish straw buyers who buy a gun legally and then "lose" it by selling it to someone who then uses it in crime.

And if you don't want to go to jail for having your gun used in a crime, lock the fucking thing up.

I think there would have to be lenience to such a rule in the case of someone's weapons truly being stolen when locked up in a gun safe at someone's home, for example. Maybe it would be better to make it a "straw buyer" regulation instead?

[basinbeater]

I think there would have to be lenience to such a rule in the case of someone's weapons truly being stolen when locked up in a gun safe at someone's home, for example. Maybe it would be better to make it a "straw buyer" regulation instead?

The devil is always in the details. But I agree.

[MultiVerse]

If someone steals my car and uses it to rob a bank or run over innocents i don't go to jail.

I'm not sure the repeated analogies to cars and trucks makes sense. Aren't cars and trucks heavily regulated in America? Are you proposing that guns should be similarly regulated?

It just seems like a strange comparison. For example, another comparison that I think BD made is fatalities related to drunk driving. In the 70s/80s drunk driving led to something like 60% of traffic fatalities but now as a result of stricter laws etc.that percentage has been massively reduced.

[summit]

I'm not sure the repeated analogies to cars and trucks makes sense. Aren't cars and trucks heavily regulated in America? Are you proposing that guns are similarly regulated?

Guns are regulated and basinbeater was proposing a draconian regulation

[My Pet Powder Goat]

I don't agree with knee jerk reactions, based on emotion.

How does anything you posted, explain away that theory?



Sweet. Can you point me in the direction of one I can buy, that was made after 1986?

I've been staying out of this argument for the most part, because nothing is going to change, at least not from us arguing on a ski forum.

... but, I wanted to mention that BD loves to throw around the word "knee-jerk reaction" like we're all just being reactionary;

is it "knee jerk" when it happens. all. The. Fucking. Time?

Is it "knee jerk" when we have this same fucking argument 5 times a year?

I'm pretty sure, we've thought out and solidified our positions on this issue pretty well. The majority of Americans have decided that they want reform, yet we're being held hostage by special interests, and cuckolded Republicans

[ill-advised strategy]

When I moved from Taos to Salt Lake, I had this 78 F250 that was kind of loose, with a chattery clutch and brakes that weren't the best. I used it for 3 trips back and forth with all my stuff, 12 hours each way, on that desert drive with no radio. The first time in Sandy with my old truck, having never lived in the city, I was overwhelmed with driving the old truck on the 85mph freeway and in the stop and go with the chattering clutch and trying to stop when these people jam their brakes...
So I got on ebay motors and found a guy who would trade the F250 for a subaru, in Jackson Mississippi. So on the last of those 24 hour round trips, as I was getting sick from lack of sleep, I went past Taos and kept driving all the way to Mississippi.

I followed mapquest directions to the place, but I got there late at night, and I was a kind of fried that defies a written description. There was a motel across the street, and I could not drive anymore whatsoever, so I went and got a room. It was seedy, Jackson is sketchy (apparently, who knew?). All night there were sirens and gunshots and yelling, I didn't get a lot of sleep.

Next day I go over to this shady used car lot with the subaru and meet this big fat pasty gross southern fuck running the place.
I need to look the car over and he needs to look the truck over, I take the car for a short drive and it immediately overheats. Nice.

So he calls somebody and some sketchy looking hillbillies come and tow the car off, and I spend all day there absorbing life at a ghetto Jackson MS used car lot. The old fat fuck was a lifer in the used car biz, the young fat fuck had just come from finishing law school and had started putting cars on ebay motors, which was relatively new at the time. They were amazed by me, a mountain-town longhair.

Anyway, when the subaru was "done", we took junior's mustang and drove over there. It all looked the same to me, but you'd cross this imaginary line and all of a sudden it was all white people, or another line and all black people...every time we'd get into black people zone this sweating obese fuck would start driving crazy and put his chrome pistol on his lap and lock the doors. I guess he was just itching to shoot somebody, scared to death of black people?

That baby huey guy was really excited that I'd forgotten that I had my 22 rifle behind the seat of the old ford, it was more or less just part of the truck at that point, and I just let him have it with the truck.

That was a weird trip, once I got the subaru I went over to Meridian MS to meet my girlfriend's dad, who was one of the founders of the Flying Burrito Brothers and toured with Willie Nelson for a long time. He had zero money and was sleeping on the couch of his 90 something year old mom's house. His Lincoln towncar was literally on blocks, and he was mostly happy to see me so he could get a ride to take his royalty checks to the casino and the liquor store. Almost unfathomably, he did the same thing as that fat fuck....scrambling to have a pistol ready and doors locked every time we crossed the stupid imaginary line into somewhere with black people. I felt like an alien in those places. No sleep, running a fever, strange things going on at every turn, guns and paranoia.

Subaru broke down in Shreveport, and I spent a week there absorbing life at a dealership in Shreveport...thank God there was a service writer there from Grand Rapids Michigan who made a special case of getting my car going so I could GTFO and on my way to a new life in Utah.

[wooley12]

It is BD just being BD. Nothing new. Everyone here has a "style". Some post emptiness.

[Buster Highmen]

When I moved from Taos to Salt Lake, I had this 78 F250 that was kind of loose, with a chattery clutch and brakes that weren't the best. I used it for 3 trips back and forth with all my stuff, 12 hours each way, on that desert drive with no radio. The first time in Sandy with my old truck, having never lived in the city, I was overwhelmed with driving the old truck on the 85mph freeway and in the stop and go with the chattering clutch and trying to stop when these people jam their brakes...
So I got on ebay motors and found a guy who would trade the F250 for a subaru, in Jackson Mississippi. So on the last of those 24 hour round trips, as I was getting sick from lack of sleep, I went past Taos and kept driving all the way to Mississippi.

I followed mapquest directions to the place, but I got there late at night, and I was a kind of fried that defies a written description. There was a motel across the street, and I could not drive anymore whatsoever, so I went and got a room. It was seedy, Jackson is sketchy (apparently, who knew?). All night there were sirens and gunshots and yelling, I didn't get a lot of sleep.

Next day I go over to this shady used car lot with the subaru and meet this big fat pasty gross southern fuck running the place.
I need to look the car over and he needs to look the truck over, I take the car for a short drive and it immediately overheats. Nice.

So he calls somebody and some sketchy looking hillbillies come and tow the car off, and I spend all day there absorbing life at a ghetto Jackson MS used car lot. The old fat fuck was a lifer in the used car biz, the young fat fuck had just come from finishing law school and had started putting cars on ebay motors, which was relatively new at the time. They were amazed by me, a mountain-town longhair.

Anyway, when the subaru was "done", we took junior's mustang and drove over there. It all looked the same to me, but you'd cross this imaginary line and all of a sudden it was all white people, or another line and all black people...every time we'd get into black people zone this sweating obese fuck would start driving crazy and put his chrome pistol on his lap and lock the doors. I guess he was just itching to shoot somebody, scared to death of black people?

That baby huey guy was really excited that I'd forgotten that I had my 22 rifle behind the seat of the old ford, it was more or less just part of the truck at that point, and I just let him have it with the truck.

That was a weird trip, once I got the subaru I went over to Meridian MS to meet my girlfriend's dad, who was one of the founders of the Flying Burrito Brothers and toured with Willie Nelson for a long time. He had zero money and was sleeping on the couch of his 90 something year old mom's house. His Lincoln towncar was literally on blocks, and he was mostly happy to see me so he could get a ride to take his royalty checks to the casino and the liquor store. Almost unfathomably, he did the same thing as that fat fuck....scrambling to have a pistol ready and doors locked every time we crossed the stupid imaginary line into somewhere with black people. I felt like an alien in those places. No sleep, running a fever, strange things going on at every turn, guns and paranoia.

Subaru broke down in Shreveport, and I spent a week there absorbing life at a dealership in Shreveport...thank God there was a service writer there from Grand Rapids Michigan who made a special case of getting my car going so I could GTFO and on my way to a new life in Utah.

You'd damn well better be logging this shit somewhere other than TGR. Write and publish, man.

ps. other folks might stop with the personal attacks since it does nothing to destroy the idea purveyed by the person (not referring to the knee jerk comment by MPPG)

[MultiVerse]

Guns are regulated and basinbeater was proposing a draconian regulation

Not to the extent that cars are. In your example of someone stealing a car, the chain of ownership is easily followed, right? Operating a car also requires a license, the car itself needs to be licensed, training, and insurance while commercial trucks require additional licenses, insurance, regulations, weigh stations, etc.

[Meadow Skipper]

You'd damn well better be logging this shit somewhere other than TGR. Write and publish, man.

+1

[My Pet Powder Goat]

You'd damn well better be logging this shit somewhere other than TGR. Write and publish, man.

Agree! You've got a gift, yeti, you paint a great picture with intimate insight and humanity.

[ACH]

Agree! You've got a gift, yeti, you paint a great picture with intimate insight and humanity.

Agree...
Podcasts at the very least.