Obama...Kennedy...MLK Jr.

[MassLiberal]

Missed this the first time around. I thought it was because Hillary offered you more cash? At least, that's you PM'd me.

Anyways, this is the most retarded argument anywhere. Want proof?

www.hillaryis44.com

Again, you choose to attack me rather than discuss the topic. I rest my case. You call yourself a liberal, and yet you represent everything that is wrong with our party. Arrogance seeps through your every post, whether it be your "bros before hos" profile picture, or your usage of private conversations in order to vilify others.

You people like to act like Senator Clinton is the Anti Christ, and use misogynistic attacks in order to justify your positions. What has she done that is so awful? She has a lifetime record of working to affect positive change in other peoples lives. Whether it be organizing church food drives as a young girl, fighting for women and children's rights as a young lawyer, or taking action in order to provide service members in Iraq with health care when they return.

Obama has worked as a community organizer, which is admirable, but as a politician he is no less culpible than the Clinton's. His entire campaign is a rehashing of Deval Patrick's in Massachusetts. A man who I worked for because of his powerful message of change. What happened after he was elected? He has become a miserable failure who has been unable to control the governorship or the party he was elected to lead. I lost faith in bubbly rhetoric after my experience with Patrick, as I learned that lofty rhetoric does not necessarily make a good executive. Plus, he has repeatedly acted as a shill for corporate interests while he was in the Illinois senate, ignoring workers rights in order to cozy up to the power structure within the state. You may choose to ignore these facts, but they are there.

[supermodel159]

The more I listen to Obama, the more I liken him to RFK and MLK Jr. Clearly, there has been no recent presidentail candidate (other than maybe Reagan) who matches Obama in public speaking and eloquence. Clearly, when he speaks, we are reminded of Reverend King. Obama is passionate, profound and eloquent. Apparently, both Clinton and McCain are attempting to attack this skill as being sum over substance.
While Obama lacks governmental experience, his passion, commitment and dedication to "change" are winning over the public. Although RFK was AG from '61-64, he was only a one term Senator ('65-68) before taking on the nation by storm with his ideas of civil rights, racial equality and the anti-aparteid movement. Furthermore, RFK did not support any commitment to ground troops in SE Asia.

All I'm saying is that there is a strong juxtiposition between Obama, RFK and MLK Jr. All three are/were very important, and seem(ed) bigger than life. I have an uneasy feeling...It's a bit scary.

It's probably because he is stealing their speeches.

[RootSkier]

your usage of private conversations in order to vilify others.

Whatever, if you, as a paid employee of Clinton, are going to be disingenuous* like that, I'm going to call you out.

Was the bros before hoes thing in bad taste? Hell yes it was, but this is TGR after all.


*this is the kind way of saying it...because after Hillary drops out, we will be on the same side...I hope.

[Adolf Allerbush]

You people like to act like Senator Clinton is the Anti Christ, and use misogynistic attacks in order to justify your positions. What has she done that is so awful? She has a lifetime record of working to affect positive change in other peoples lives.

Don't lump everyone together. I'll give HRC my vote if she gets the Dem nod. I feel like Obama represents more of a change from what we've had in power for the past 20 or so years. I think HRC is a fine candidate though.

[MassLiberal]

Whatever, if you, as a paid employee of Clinton, are going to be disingenuous* like that, I'm going to call you out.

Was the bros before hoes thing in bad taste? Hell yes it was, but this is TGR after all.


*this is the kind way of saying it...because after Hillary drops out, we will be on the same side...I hope.

Yes, we will. And i fucking hate fighting with democrats, we have the same goals, I just get frustrated with the level of hatred there is for a woman who has worked so hard to accomplish what she has. I realize that she has some strong negatives, but I feel that people putting Obama on such a high pedestal makes it easier to knock him down in the general. There needs to be an honest assesment of his weaknesses so that if he does win, we aren't caught flatfooted when the attacks come. There is no avoiding the partisan politics that he loves to call the "politics of the past," as they are the politics of human nature. There is no avoiding them in a struggle to control the future of the country.

[RootSkier]

Right on...and I tend to agree with you about the pedestal. It's just that this is the first time I have ever been remotely excited about a presidential ballot. I think we are about the same age, so it's not like we've had too many, but Kerry got me as excited a two day old pizza and flat beer.

Anyways, Jon Tester was the only other vote I was actually stoked to cast, and he won. Has he lived up to all my hopes? No, but he's new in Washington and I think he's doing pretty good.

edit: I don't hate Hillary at all.

[Rontele]

Again, you choose to attack me rather than discuss the topic. I rest my case. You call yourself a liberal, and yet you represent everything that is wrong with our party. Arrogance seeps through your every post, whether it be your "bros before hos" profile picture, or your usage of private conversations in order to vilify others.

You people like to act like Senator Clinton is the Anti Christ, and use misogynistic attacks in order to justify your positions. What has she done that is so awful? She has a lifetime record of working to affect positive change in other peoples lives. Whether it be organizing church food drives as a young girl, fighting for women and children's rights as a young lawyer, or taking action in order to provide service members in Iraq with health care when they return.

Obama has worked as a community organizer, which is admirable, but as a politician he is no less culpible than the Clinton's. His entire campaign is a rehashing of Deval Patrick's in Massachusetts. A man who I worked for because of his powerful message of change. What happened after he was elected? He has become a miserable failure who has been unable to control the governorship or the party he was elected to lead. I lost faith in bubbly rhetoric after my experience with Patrick, as I learned that lofty rhetoric does not necessarily make a good executive. Plus, he has repeatedly acted as a shill for corporate interests while he was in the Illinois senate, ignoring workers rights in order to cozy up to the power structure within the state. You may choose to ignore these facts, but they are there.

While he is as arrogant as Obama supporters, massliberal makes some very good points and highlights why I have lingering doubts regarding Obama's ability to deliver.

[TyWebb]

I think Crass's comments have legs...the Obamamania has got to eventually encounter an exhaustion level. Its wild to see it build...I hope for his sake that he doesn't peak too soon.

If I were in the Clinton camp right now and I adopt one message the rest of the way..."Do you want a rock star, or do you want an experienced leader"

I thought McCain did a great job shifting his focus to Obama the other day: "Don't be fooled by eloquent, yet ultimately hollow promises of change".

[Adolf Allerbush]

I thought McCain did a great job shifting his focus to Obama the other day: "Do be fooled by eloquent, yet ultimately hollow promises of change".

See I thought it was pathetically sad when McCain said that. Almost like admitting defeat. Basically he's saying "shit won't change so why vote for somebody who wants change. Vote for me. Nothing will get better and we'll still be in this quagmire." Such a boring un-compelling pussified politico is McCain.

Edit: I think you mean't "don't be fooled"

[iscariot]

I'd say Edwards had a little JFK and MLK Jr. in him. He was for social equality and helping the poor.

[AlpineJunkie]

I'd say Edwards had a little JFK and MLK Jr. in him.

That's impossible. Edwards is too young for them to have ever gotten together.

[CUBUCK]

See I thought it was pathetically sad when McCain said that. Almost like admitting defeat. Basically he's saying "shit won't change so why vote for somebody who wants change. Vote for me. Nothing will get better and we'll still be in this quagmire." Such a boring un-compelling pussified politico is McCain.

Edit: I think you mean't "don't be fooled"

I don't know I think he was dead on. In Obama's years in the Senate what exactly has he actually attempted to change? Change Change Change but at the end of the day the guy has been in Washington for 3 years and hasn't attempted to change shit. He has voted along party lines constantly where as McCain has actually crossed party lines a number of times in order to find solutions. If you are expecting anything different from Obama you are simply being delusional.

[TyWebb]

See I thought it was pathetically sad when McCain said that. Almost like admitting defeat. Basically he's saying "shit won't change so why vote for somebody who wants change. Vote for me. Nothing will get better and we'll still be in this quagmire." Such a boring un-compelling pussified politico is McCain.

Edit: I think you mean't "don't be fooled"

I disagree...I think Obama competitors (Clinton/McCain) - need to stop trying to beat him at his own game, acknowledge his eloquence and talk about how they would be better. I think Hil spent too much time trying to win the likability race - thats just not going to happen. Just be yourself and explain why its the best fit for the job.

Each time McCain respectfully acknowledges that "Obama may be able to rock the stump, but he just does not have the experience and seasoning to effectively get work done in the system". - it makes me think twice about separating mania from reality.

[rideit]

Seasoning....hmm...I'm thinking a dry rub.
Or a Jerk.

[Adolf Allerbush]

I don't know I think he was dead on. In Obama's years in the Senate what exactly has he actually attempted to change? Change Change Change but at the end of the day the guy has been in Washington for 3 years and hasn't attempted to change shit. He has voted along party lines constantly where as McCain has actually crossed party lines a number of times in order to find solutions. If you are expecting anything different from Obama you are simply being delusional.

So, let me see if I understand this. Since the US hasn't changed while Obama has been a senator it's his fault. But since it hasn’t' changed while McCain has been a senator it's not his fault. Huh?

Singularly they cannot change the US as senators...as President they will have a little more influence no? But in your opinion you see McCain as the person who is leading this change? How so?

[RootSkier]

I'll leave it to you to read the bills...but here are some bills Obama has introduced and passed.

all from here...yeah, unbiased and all: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/20.../807/36/458633

On Iran: S.J.RES.23 : A joint resolution clarifying that the use of force against Iran is not authorized by the Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq, any resolution previously adopted, or any other provision of law.

On votingPassed out of Committee and now on the Senate Calendar for Feb. 22, 2008
S.453 : A bill to prohibit deceptive practices in Federal elections Please check this out! This is a great bill. We need this. I can't believe that this time voter intimidation is not already illegal.

On veterans and military personnel: S.1084 : A bill to provide housing assistance for very low-income veterans;

On global warmingS.1324 : A bill to amend the Clean Air Act to reduce greenhouse gas emissions from transportation fuel sold in the United States;S.1389 : A bill to authorize the National Science Foundation to establish a Climate Change Education Program; S.AMDT.599 to S.CON.RES.21 To add $200 million for Function 270 (Energy) for the demonstration and monitoring of carbon capture and sequestration technology by the Department of Energy. (This last one passed both the House and the Senate as part of the budget bill.)

On campaign finance and lobbyists S.2030 : A bill to amend the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971 to require reporting relating to bundled contributions made by persons other than registered lobbyists; and S.AMDT.41 to S.1 To require lobbyists to disclose the candidates, leadership PACs, or political parties for whom they collect or arrange contributions, and the aggregate amount of the contributions collected or arranged.

On Blackwater S.2044 : A bill to provide procedures for the proper classification of employees and independent contractors, and for other purposes, and S.2147 : A bill to require accountability for contractors and contract personnel under Federal contracts, and for other purposes.

On global poverty S.2433 : A bill to require the President to develop and implement a comprehensive strategy to further the United States foreign policy objective of promoting the reduction of global poverty, the elimination of extreme global poverty, and the achievement of the Millennium Development Goal of reducing by one-half the proportion of people worldwide, between 1990 and 2015, who live on less than $1 per day.

On global nuclear proliferation S.1977 : A bill to provide for sustained United States leadership in a cooperative global effort to prevent nuclear terrorism, reduce global nuclear arsenals, stop the spread of nuclear weapons and related material and technology, and support the responsible and peaceful use of nuclear technology.


edit: oops, these are the "minor bills"

Obama's Success:
S.AMDT.1041 to S.1082 To improve the safety and efficacy of genetic tests.
S.AMDT.3073 to H.R.1585 To provide for transparency and accountability in military and security contracting.
S.AMDT.3078 to H.R.1585 Relating to administrative separations of members of the Armed Forces for personality disorder.
S.AMDT.41 to S.1 To require lobbyists to disclose the candidates, leadership PACs, or political parties for whom they collect or arrange contributions, and the aggregate amount of the contributions collected or arranged.
S.AMDT.524 to S.CON.RES.21 To provide $100 million for the Summer Term Education Program supporting summer learning opportunities for low-income students in the early grades to lessen summer learning losses that contribute to the achievement gaps separating low-income students from their middle-class peers.
S.AMDT.599 to S.CON.RES.21 To add $200 million for Function 270 (Energy) for the demonstration and monitoring of carbon capture and sequestration technology by the Department of Energy.
S.AMDT.905 to S.761 To require the Director of Mathematics, Science, and Engineering Education to establish a program to recruit and provide mentors for women and underrepresented minorities who are interested in careers in mathematics, science, and engineering.
S.AMDT.923 to S.761 To expand the pipeline of individuals entering the science, technology, engineering, and mathematics fields to support United States innovation and competitiveness.
S.AMDT.924 to S.761 To establish summer term education programs.
S.AMDT.2519 to H.R.2638 To provide that one of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5 million or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee certifies in writing to the agency awarding the contract or grant that the contractor or grantee owes no past due Federal tax liability.
S.AMDT.2588 to H.R.976 To provide certain employment protections for family members who are caring for members of the Armed Forces recovering from illnesses and injuries incurred on active duty.
S.AMDT.2658 to H.R.2642 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5,000,000 or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee makes certain certifications regarding Federal tax liability.
S.AMDT.2692 to H.R.2764 To require a comprehensive nuclear threat reduction and security plan.
S.AMDT.2799 to H.R.3074 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5,000,000 or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee makes certain certifications regarding Federal tax liability.
S.AMDT.3137 to H.R.3222 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5,000,000 or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee makes certain certifications regarding Federal tax liability.
S.AMDT.3234 to H.R.3093 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5,000,000 or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee makes certain certifications regarding Federal tax liability.
S.AMDT.3331 to H.R.3043 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5,000,000 or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee makes certain certifications regarding Federal tax liability.
Senate Resolutions Passed:

[AlpineJunkie]

McCain has done more to take money out of politics and try to establish some kind of ethics in poltics then Obama EVER will. Obama has held elected offices before and has done NOTHING with them. Worse then doing nothing he actually refused to partake in votes and legislation that had the ability to change things one way or the other. He is all talk. He talks the talk but has been proven incapable of walking the walk.

[CUBUCK]

So, let me see if I understand this. Since the US hasn't changed while Obama has been a senator it's his fault. But since it hasn’t' changed while McCain has been a senator it's not his fault. Huh?

Singularly they cannot change the US as senators...as President they will have a little more influence no? But in your opinion you see McCain as the person who is leading this change? How so?

Its don't tell me, show me.

I'm not saying either of them are at fault. What I am saying is that McCain has made attempts to reach across the aisle to get results while Obama just walks the party line. In order to actually change the policies and politics of this country you will need to engage both sides and compromise, something Obama has been unwilling to do.

As far as having more power as president of course, but if he really felt that strongly that this country needed a change he would have done more then sit on his thumbs the last three years.

[RootSkier]

Obama has held elected offices before and has done NOTHING with them.

You sir, are a hack of the worst sort. You could have all the evidence shoved in your face and still refuse to read it.

You don't even know who Mark Twain is, for fucks sake, so why don't you log off and go read a book instead of repeating Rush's talking points endlessly.

[AlpineJunkie]

You don't even know who Mark Twain is, for fucks sake, so why don't you log off and go read a book instead

lol Hey Root, who is this guy George Washington I keep hearing about?

[Adolf Allerbush]

lol Hey Root, who is this guy George Washington I keep hearing about?

That's Jorge Washington. He's this Mexican dude.

[lemon boy]

Obama supporters need to realize what they are getting with him. They will not be getting a nominee who can define differences between the parties. Obama seemingly only mentioned “Republicans” in the context of reaching out to them, while letting their leaders off the hook, as if the last seven years of graft, corruption, and circumvention of the Constitution were bipartisan in origin. Obama aimed his attack not against the party which controlled Washington for the better part of this decade and which controlled Congress for the better part of the 1990’s. Rather, he aimed his critique against both parties and Washington as a whole, as if Democrats are equally culpable for the country’s problems. If tonight is any guide, Democrats will be getting a nominee who runs just as often against them as Republicans. They will be getting a nominee who shows little stomach for holding the Republican Party in general and John McCain particularly accountable for what they have done to this country. His campaign seemingly has an easier time carving up a female Democratic opponent than they do a Republican standard-bearer who represents Bush’s third term, and who questions Obama’s fitness for office.

I wasn't really going to get into this thread but this post really made me stop and have a thought or two. What you've outlined above is exactly what's fucked up about this country's government and not just the democratic or republican parties. Seriously dude, Americans don't want to get back at Republicans as much as they want to get back on the right track.

I don't however hate HRC, I just don't really like her that much and I really dislike the Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton dynastic element to her candidacy, it is to me a perfect marker for some of our system's fundamental problems right now.

[RootSkier]

That's Jorge Washington. He's this Mexican dude.

[MassLiberal]

While he is as arrogant as Obama supporters, massliberal makes some very good points and highlights why I have lingering doubts regarding Obama's ability to deliver.

I try my hardest not to be arrogant, but when you invest so much in a cause, it is sometimes difficult to beat back some of the flaws which lie underneath my skin.

[Adolf Allerbush]

Its don't tell me, show me.

I'm not saying either of them are at fault. What I am saying is that McCain has made attempts to reach across the aisle to get results while Obama just walks the party line. In order to actually change the policies and politics of this country you will need to engage both sides and compromise, something Obama has been unwilling to do.

As far as having more power as president of course, but if he really felt that strongly that this country needed a change he would have done more then sit on his thumbs the last three years.

I hear you man. I'm thinking he hasn't done a lot because he hasn't been a senator for that long. He hasn't built up those relationships with other senators to be able to do things like McCain does. This is definitely a weak part of Obama’s campaign.

Then again presidents like JFK had about the same level of experience as Obama and yet he was able to show some pretty serious restraint by not invading Cuba and or getting into an all out battle with the Soviets. Had Nixon beaten JFK back in the day who knows how things could've turned out?

What I'm getting at is that we can't know what Obama is capable of as a president based on his experience as a senator. I think he's the best candidate out there though and I like his ideas. To me he is the most likely person running to make changes. But like you’ve pointed out his inexperience and lack of political relationships could really hurt him as a leader.