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Thread: Student Loan Forgiveness

  1. #1001
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    Because it's whataboutism Thursday...what about Maslow? Is $10k to each debt holder better than $10k towards each person without shelter? They'd probably waste it on booze and cigs anyways...
    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Well, I'm not allowed to delete this post, but, I can say, go fuck yourselves, everybody!

  2. #1002
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    No. But should we help the homeless to the exclusion of everybody else?

    Also, those guys don’t vote.
    focus.

  3. #1003
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Why would they be penalized? On average they're the ones who are going to earn at least a miilion dollars more over the course of their lifetimes.

    I think there's a lot of bias or mood affiliation happening with this discussion. Because most of us here have degrees, we're ascribing merit or worth to people like ourselves.
    I was being a bit of a jokester.

    Also, see my post upthread re: correlation vs causation.
    focus.

  4. #1004
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    Isn't this all really just a precursor to the next step, some amount of free community college or trade school for all high school graduates?? They're starting here to reduce the amount of crying about that cookie jar..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  5. #1005
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    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Isn't this all really just a precursor to the next step, some amount of free community college or trade school for all high school graduates?? They're starting here to reduce the amount of crying about that cookie jar..
    Man, getting kids into trade school would be so fucking good for this country. Nobody knows how to do anything but push buttons anymore.

  6. #1006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Name Redacted View Post
    Man, getting kids into trade school would be so fucking good for this country. Nobody knows how to do anything but push buttons anymore.
    Half the problem is having masters for the trades that will be big in 20 years, we're not even really sure what those trades will be.. Car repair is going to be completely different as regular maintenance of an EV is minimal compared to the current cars.. Even building houses will be quite robotic. Plumbing and electrical will be a lot of components instead of custom made stuff..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  7. #1007
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    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Isn't this all really just a precursor to the next step, some amount of free community college or trade school for all high school graduates?? They're starting here to reduce the amount of crying about that cookie jar..
    Yeah, but according to this thread that’s just taxpayers paying for someone else’s job training and if I was able to enter the trades via another mechanism why should I have to pay for a guy to learn how to twist wires?

  8. #1008
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldnew_guy View Post
    Yeah, but according to this thread that’s just taxpayers paying for someone else’s job training and if I was able to enter the trades via another mechanism why should I have to pay for a guy to learn how to twist wires?
    Twist wires. Yeah, that old tech old guy [emoji16]

  9. #1009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supermoon View Post
    I just saw a timeline of public funding of schools and how it starts to drop almost exactly the same time as Brown v. Board. As soon as people of color had access to the school systems the money started to dry up. Which is least shocking thing ever. (I'll try to find it again.)
    Quote Originally Posted by oldnew_guy View Post
    Yeah, but according to this thread that’s just taxpayers paying for someone else’s job training and if I was able to enter the trades via another mechanism why should I have to pay for a guy to learn how to twist wires?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    Also, see my post upthread re: correlation vs causation.
    Smart people study this stuff. Smart people with advanced degrees from places like Harvard. Nearly everybody here has it backwards. This will increase college costs, not lower them. This isn't about spending less on education. It's about not subsidizing the wrong thing. Whether or not this is good politics, this is bad policy.

    To give just one of many examples of bloat — spending on student services at colleges and universities grew four times faster than spending on instruction and research.

    The entire reason we're in this mess with student loans to begin with is the gusher of student loan money essentially removes any incentive for colleges to do anything about costs. As a result the gains from attending college are increasingly going to people who come from affluent families.

    It's hurting the American dream of upward mobility and entrenching class distinctions in American.

  10. #1010
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Smart people study this stuff. Smart people with advanced degrees from places like Harvard. Nearly everybody here has it backwards. This will increase college costs, not lower them. This isn't about spending less on education. It's about not subsidizing the wrong thing. Whether or not this is good politics, this is bad policy.

    To give just one of many examples of bloat — spending on student services at colleges and universities grew four times faster than spending on instruction and research.
    I'm one of those smart people. A 1-time write down of debt probably doesn't affect costs one way or the other, just an FYI.

    Sent from my Pixel 5a using Tapatalk

  11. #1011
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    The entire reason we're in this mess with student loans to begin with is the gusher of student loan money essentially removes any incentive for colleges to do anything about costs.
    I think few people disagree with this ^^^

    We are dealing with the economic effects of a global pandemic & a foreign war that affects a common energy source.

    This was never intended to solve the cost of education. It is an attempt to goose the economy

  12. #1012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirshredalot View Post
    I'm one of those smart people. A 1-time write down of debt probably doesn't affect costs one way or the other, just an FYI.
    That's just one component of this plan. And as someone with an economic background you know none of this addresses the affordability issue.


    Quote Originally Posted by ::: ::: View Post
    I think few people disagree with this ^^^

    We are dealing with the economic effects of a global pandemic & a foreign war that affects a common energy source.

    This was never intended to solve the cost of education. It is an attempt to goose the economy
    Most people here seem to disagree, that doesn't mean they're right. Also, why would we want to goose the economy when we're dealing with rampant inflation? Not that it matters — what the federal government giveth, the Fed taketh away.

  13. #1013
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post

    The entire reason we're in this mess with student loans to begin with is the gusher of student loan money essentially removes any incentive for colleges to do anything about costs.
    You're smart enough to know that's not true. There are other factors, but while, like I wrote earlier, it's a significant factor, it's not the entire reason. So don't go all emo on your point, we get it.
    It's hurting the American dream of upward mobility and entrenching class distinctions in American.
    True and it directs more money to the investor class. And it doesn't address the fundamental problem, but it does aalleviate the economic stress on people who took on college loans.
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  14. #1014
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Also, why would we want to goose the economy when we're dealing with rampant inflation? Not that it matters — what the federal government giveth, the Fed taketh away.
    Yeah, this is absolutely not about ‘goosing’ the economy. People are loosing their shit about inflation, mortgage rates, etc. Attempt to goose the economy would just make those worse.

  15. #1015
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    “Goose the economy“ is probably the wrong wording. Ease financial burdens.

  16. #1016
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    You're smart enough to know that's not true. There are other factors, but while, like I wrote earlier, it's a significant factor, it's not the entire reason. So don't go all emo on your point, we get it..
    Would it make you happy if I said it's the main reason? As far as going 'emo' people here are comparing opposing bad policy to opposing Brown v. Board of education. I'm not the one who has this twisted.

  17. #1017
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Would it make you happy if I said it's the main reason? As far as going 'emo' people here are comparing opposing bad policy to opposing Brown v. Board of education. I'm not the one who has this twisted.
    My happiness doesn't matter and I do not appreciate being patronized.

    Just don't blow the situation out of proportion, stick to the facts. Otherwise, you're just the same as those you criticize.

    Student loan forgiveness doesn't address the problem of college tuition inflation, but it does alleviate some peoples debt stress.
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  18. #1018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Name Redacted View Post
    Man, getting kids into trade school would be so fucking good for this country. Nobody knows how to do anything but push buttons anymore.
    It what happens if everyone skips college and goes to trade school instead? This whole “nobody knows how to work hard anymore” is such bullshit. We need people in trades but those are hard, dangerous (relatively) jobs with cultures and processes that are exclusionary to women, and people with disabilities among others.

    People say college is a waste for lots of people, but so is picking up a hammer and destroying your body for 15 years until you burn out or can’t do the work anymore and are left with nothing but a mountain of debt from medical bills, bar tabs and a pair of four wheelers instead of a student loan.

    There are traps inside every life path, and we need people to go to college to do “real jobs” and not just play Lincoln logs for a living.

    **see how easy it is to just diminish someone’s career by taking the worst stereotypes and applying them to everyone with a broad brush because you feel somehow superior to them?**


    PS - I don’t actually mean any of that just making a point.

  19. #1019
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    Just don't blow the situation out of proportion
    I really don't think I am. The college affordability issue is one of maybe three or four of the big main reasons for the divisions we are facing in this country.

  20. #1020
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    I really don't think I am. The college affordability issue is one of maybe three or four of the big main reasons for the divisions we are facing in this country.
    I would say fascism, religion and corporate greed are way ahead of the field

  21. #1021
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    I'm talking about the root cause. The fact that a majority of Americans feel like the American dream (i.e., upward mobility) is no longer possible lies at the root of the problem and is what causes the politics of resentment.

  22. #1022
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    Yeah, cost of education isn’t in the top 5 reasons for division

  23. #1023
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    I really don't think I am. The college affordability issue is one of maybe three or four of the big main reasons for the divisions we are facing in this country.
    Diluting the argument by misconstruing underlying reasons doesn't help make the point.

    Agreed that college affordability is a 'big main' problem in the USA. Agreed that the loan forgiveness doesn't address the underlying issue.

    But I acknowledge what the goal is: easing debt for those who took out college loans and move on to the sea changes that caused student loans to be developed: a lack of federal and state funding for higher education.
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  24. #1024
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    Isn't the growth of fascism a function of the receding American dream and a byproduct of letting the investor class have too much sway in politics?

    I do think the cost of education is a reason for the rise of fascism. Just look at the demographics of the left: "educated" is the main property.

    So while I piss off MV nittering away at his logic, I agree on the larger, coarse issues.
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  25. #1025
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    Diluting the argument by misconstruing underlying reasons doesn't help make the point.
    A trillion dollar subsidy given to colleges is diluting the argument? Especially when it's the the main underlying reason for ever increasing college costs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    I do think the cost of education is a reason for the rise of fascism. Just look at the demographics of the left: "educated" is the main property.
    The demographics of the left have shifted in favor of affluent high income college educated Americans:

    People across the nation now live in increasingly multiethnic communities, and their conceptions of race no longer conform to basic racial binary politics in which one side (the Republicans) upholds white supremacy and the other side (Democrats) fights for all us little guys.

    This gap between how race and inequality get discussed on the big political and media stages and the reality in places like Sweet Home only widened during the Trump era. For the most part, this was understandable. Given the immensity of the alarm over Trump’s plans, it’s difficult to really fault anyone for not fine-tuning all their understanding of the country. But the persistence of a binary type of thinking when it comes to politics, race and inequality has made it increasingly difficult to process everything else that takes place in the country.

    Much — not all — of the equity talk in American education suffers from a lack of imagination. The goal, for the most part, seems to be to keep all the hierarchies within the system and simply make the end result perfectly match the racial demographics of the country. This, I believe, is a catastrophic and ultimately impoverished way to think about education. Instead of worrying about the number of minority kids in elite colleges, someone truly committed to class equality should argue that these schools, which cater overwhelmingly to the wealthiest families in the world...

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