Student Loan Forgiveness

[J. Barron DeJong]

Not if you include payroll taxes, state taxes, sales taxes, etc.

None of which go towards the Federal government’s balance sheet?

[dunfree]

If it wasn't clear, when I wrote revenue I meant all revenue including tuition, donations, and endowments. Donors want monuments and schools want higher rankings (instead of larger more diverse student bodies) in no small part to attract more donations.

and to get donations and donors you need to produce rich graduates and/or donors who appreciate your institution, aka important people with money. Baristas don’t sustain an institution.

[simple]

I don’t buy this is that popular of an idea, it’s just very popular amongst the college educated millennial group that makes up an increasing share of the Democrats base, but we’re less and less enthusiastic about the current administration. It further pushes away the working people who used to make up the democrat base.

You just keep spouting your "feelings" and making less and less sense.

Your last sentence especially. What is a "working people"? Seems to me that includes everyone who files taxes. Even folks in higher education I would consider "working". Data I see says 7 million people don't file taxes when they should. What party do they vote for? Probably neither as I would bet they don't vote either. I bet those people have opinions on what is popular also.

Everyone else seems to be slamming you so I will not be offended if you don't respond.

[XavierD]

Okay, so lower income people don’t benefit from this unless they have outstanding education debt. How is this costing them more?
You’re kind of dancing around the question.

I’m not sure I can make this any more simple. Their share of the national debt just went up. Spending and tax cuts paid for by those who don’t benefit. Just because someone doesn’t come to their door and take an extra $2000 from them doesn’t mean they don’t pay for it. If you don’t understand that I can’t help you.

[MultiVerse]

None of which go towards the Federal government’s balance sheet?

Payroll taxes don't? I mean, I know there's a lot of accounting shenanigans but as a percentage of income people who make less pay more as a percentage of income in payroll taxes.

and to get donations and donors you need to produce rich graduates and/or donors who appreciate your institution, aka important people with money. Baristas don’t sustain an institution.

So what's your point? I'm arguing school subsidizes don't lower costs, they increase them instead. It seems like you're saying the same thing i.e., monuments versus students.

[J. Barron DeJong]

I don’t buy this is that popular of an idea, it’s just very popular amongst the college educated millennial group…

…but we’re less and less enthusiastic about the current administration.

[XavierD]

You just keep spouting your "feelings" and making less and less sense.

Your last sentence especially. What is a "working people"? Seems to me that includes everyone who files taxes. Even folks in higher education I would consider "working". Data I see says 7 million people don't file taxes when they should. What party do they vote for? Probably neither as I would bet they don't vote either. I bet those people have opinions on what is popular also.

Blue collar employees without college education, often union members. A group that has historically voted overwhelmingly democrat and switched to get Trump elected.

[dunfree]

You just keep spouting your "feelings" and making less and less sense.

Your last sentence especially. What is a "working people"? Seems to me that includes everyone who files taxes. Even folks in higher education I would consider "working". Data I see says 7 million people don't file taxes when they should. What party do they vote for? Probably neither as I would bet they don't vote either. I bet those people have opinions on what is popular also.

working people = white men who espouse “traditional” Christian values. And yes, those switched. But they != all working people

[Supermoon]

working people = white men who espouse “traditional” Christian values. And yes, those switched. But they != all working people

Majority of non-college jobs are in the service sector, and are I think now majority women.

“Industrial” jobs are only like 20% of the non-college educated workforce these days.

[simple]

And union members are about 10% of the work force.

Somewhere buried in this guy's argument is that old "immigrants took our blue collar jobs" but he hasn't joined the just be openly a bigot crowd yet. They can't spin this one on Mexicans so they use transgender liberal art folks as their target. It's never "fair" to their own people.

[Dantheman]

Payroll taxes don't? I mean, I know there's a lot of accounting shenanigans but as a percentage of income people who make less pay more as a percentage of income in payroll taxes.

Literally everyone who makes less than the SS cap pays exactly the same percentage of their income in FICA taxes (7.65%).

[MultiVerse]

Right, and everyone who makes more than the cap pays a decreasing percentage. FWIW, over time payroll taxes have gone up relative to income taxes.

[Cisco Kid]

So I took 3 college Econ courses. Flunked two and passed one of them with a B for my oral presentation focusing on the validity of Supply/Demand curves.
I think I'm agreeing with Xavier kinda. Here's what I learned,

-ANY spending is inflationary as it increases demand. To a degree. I can't think of a scenario where an increase in demand makes the cost go down. Anyone? Bueller?
-

[skaredshtles]

Literally everyone who makes less than the SS cap pays exactly the same percentage of their income in FICA taxes (7.65%).

A side question... but why is there even a cap?

[::: :::]

as a percentage of income people who make less pay more as a percentage of income in payroll taxes.

sure, there is a zone of income level where the basic tax amount is large comparatively, but that is unavoidable: there are always threshold categories
but they are on the edge, not the majority of the class affected

[J. Barron DeJong]

Payroll taxes don't?

We’re trying to determine whose going to shoulder the burden of this additional debt, right?

Is there any reason to believe payroll taxes will go up and some of that money will be used to pay down the national debt?

I can’t give anywhere near an exact breakdown to how the economic burden is going to be spread, but sure as shit XavierD’s working class, below average income blue collar white guy (it is a white guy, right?) isn’t going to be on the hook for anywhere close to $2k.

[MultiVerse]

I guess I see it as a distinction without a difference, sort of like it's all one big pot. I too find the working class vs bourgeoisie framing disagreeable. Instead we should think of it as, is this best way to spend an additional $trillion dollars over the next ten years? And what are the actual policy goals of this program and does it achieve them?

[dunfree]

Majority of non-college jobs are in the service sector, and are I think now majority women.

“Industrial” jobs are only like 20% of the non-college educated workforce these days.

Something like 10% of union workers are involved with manufacturing. Fully half of union workers are public sector (police/fire/teachers - among the most heavily unionized professions)

[Mustonen]

Math is hard…..

….carry the one…..

[MultiVerse]

So if this program costs $321B and total personal income in the US was around $21T in 2021, it costs about 0.001529% of every dollar of income, assuming we’re gonna pay it all off at once.

So for our prototypical Maine Lumberjack making $50K/year, they’ll pay $0.76.

Is that the argument you were making?

As things stand it's probably closer to a trillion dolars over the next ten years. So is this best way to spend an additional $trillion dollars over the next ten years? What are the actual policy goals of this program and does it achieve them?

If the goal is to address spiraling college costs, my argument is that this program amounts to bad policy because it will lead to the opposite result. It will increase college costs even more.

[::: :::]

I guess I see it as a distinction without a difference, sort of like it's all one big pot. I too find the working class vs bourgeoisie framing disagreeable. Instead we should think of it as, is this best way to spend an additional $trillion dollars over the next ten years? And what are the actual policy goals of this program and does it achieve them?

i'm not sure we're agreed it's a trillion over ten years yet either

[J. Barron DeJong]

I guess I see it as a distinction without a difference, sort of like it's all one big pot. I too find the working class vs bourgeoisie framing disagreeable. Instead we should think of it as is this best way to spend an additional $trillion dollars over the next ten years?

But it’s not one big pot. If we’re trying to figure out who’s going to pay for this, then it matters who, uh, pays?

If payroll taxes are increased, then everyone earning under the max cutoff shoulders an equal percentage (simplifying), and those above the income cutoff would pay a a smaller percentage, since only part of their income is subject to the tax.

On the other hand, if the government decides that the we need to get debt under control, so they increase the income tax on people earning over $250k, and add a bracket for income over $1M, then highe earners are shouldering the burden.

Or they just add it to the debt, and as things currently stand, it’s upper middle-class through the very rich who will end up shouldering the vast majority of the cost, not the working class high school educated white guy making $40k.

[MultiVerse]

It's all one big pot to future generations of Americans. Do we owe them anything?

[Mustonen]

As things stand it's probably closer to a trillion dolars over the next ten years. So is this best way to spend an additional $trillion dollars over the next ten years? What are the actual policy goals of this program and does it achieve them?

My math was way off on my calc above, but you got me before I could correct it.

Anyways, the actual policy goals are stated in the articles posted by whitehouse.gov which are posted throughout the thread. Given the limitations on what could actually be accomplished and given that this isn’t zero sum - this doesn’t exclude doing other things, including increasing the tax burden on higher income earners and corporations to better manage this spending in particular, among other spending - what do you propose they should have done instead?

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I’m not sure I can make this any more simple. Their share of the national debt just went up. Spending and tax cuts paid for by those who don’t benefit. Just because someone doesn’t come to their door and take an extra $2000 from them doesn’t mean they don’t pay for it. If you don’t understand that I can’t help you.

Are you telling me that someday I’ll be sent a bill for my share of the national debt? So Joe the logger in ME scrapes by on $40k a year and pays no federal income tax, how does this cost him more? What’s being taken away from him. I’m kinda simple, try harder to explain it.