Student Loan Forgiveness

[total_immortal]

Look a little closer at who MultiVerse is citing, the American Council of Trustees and Alumni, is a conservative think tank and is supported by The Bradley Foundation...

the Bradley Foundation "has become an extraordinary force in persuading mainstream Republicans to support radical challenges to election rules—a tactic once relegated to the far right" and "funds a network of groups that have been stoking fear about election fraud, in some cases for years. Public records show that, since 2012, the foundation has spent some eighteen million dollars supporting eleven conservative groups involved in election issues."[3] On the foundation's board of directors is attorney Cleta Mitchell, who joined Donald Trump on his phone call on January 2, 2021, when he pressured Georgia election officials to find more than 11,000 votes to overturn the state's 2020 presidential election results.

So I suggest taking his statistics with a grain of conservative salt.

[MultiVerse]

So I suggest taking his statistics with a grain of conservative salt.

That's fine if you want to discount American Council of Trustees and Alumn, I was unaware of their backing myself, but discounting their research out of hand for that reason alone doesn't make sense because the underlying facts remain regardless of the source: costs are rising 3X relative to inflation, graduation rates are down, and the $1.7 trillion student debt crises remains.

So where's the evidence spending more on admin and student services does anything other than increase student debt loads? Is anyone denying most universities are deprioritizing instructional staff in favor of more expensive administrative staff?

[Supermoon]

Good call. I also feel like there’s a (usually) conservative idea that college needs to be the sterile job training program when that has never been the case for college, and that’s not exactly what its purpose is.

I always see college as a way to explore interests, learn life skills, and find a path in life, all in a semi-controlled environment where making mistakes or changing your mind doesn’t necessarily mean you are losing an apartment, or destroying your credit, or adding weird employment breaks on your resume. All of those things have value.

That’s not to say that it shouldn’t be more affordable, or there are areas to improve, but education and learning are net goods for the person and for society even if it doesn’t easily pencil out on a budget sheet.

[californiagrown]

You’re making a lot of assumptions about what college is like these days, and who’s going, and I just don’t know if there’s any data to back that up.

https://nirsa.net/nirsa/2022/06/29/r...llment-trends/

This article breaks down a lot of what’s going on and shows a focus on mental health for students because a large percentage of dropouts do so because of stress, anxiety, and other mental health problems. So all the “amenities” people complain about are healthcare services, mentor programs, advisors, etc. campus rec is a way for students to meet people, make connections and build relationships. That matter as much as job training for future life skills and wellbeing.

Enrollment is declining overall, but it’s hitting men, especially underrepresented populations, hardest, and in-state schools the most. The rich, white Ivy Leaguers are still going to their fancy resort schools.

There are basically no “cheap, fun, party schools” anymore for anyone. Let alone people who need in-state assistance

IDK, my experience is different. My state school has been on a building spree with new buildings, dorm, cafeterias, sports facilities, rec centers etc. Stuff was super nice when i went there, and when i went back recently i was shocked at how much they had built and how nice everything was/is. Its a straightup resort for freshman or anyone living on campus on a meal plan. Per the latest years report, its $24k for tuition +room/board. And thats before grants and scholarships (of which there were plenty when i went there). I doubt that the students there now making more/better connections than my generation because they have nicer amenities.

FWIW i think college is more a social education than an academic one and thats a good thing. But i also think there is an ammenity arms race going on to attract students (and their $$$$). And thats bad.

[MultiVerse]

Good call. I also feel like there’s a (usually) conservative idea that college needs to be the sterile job training program when that has never been the case for college, and that’s not exactly what its purpose is.

In recent years both the left and the right have had a tendency to discount the value of fundamental foundational skills like reading with an eye towards critical thinking and mathematics. Both sides are wrong on that score. College shouldn't be a sterile job training program, another strawman in the context of this thread, and people have diverse interests of course but parents and kids should expect non-ideological learning goals are achieved.

That's why schools should prioritize instruction and instructional staff.

[oldnew_guy]

That's fine if you want to discount American Council of Trustees and Alumn, I was unaware of their backing myself, but discounting their research out of hand for that reason alone doesn't make sense because the underlying facts remain regardless of the source: costs are rising 3X relative to inflation, graduation rates are down, and the $1.7 trillion student debt crises remains.

So where's the evidence spending more on admin and student services does anything other than increase student debt loads? Is anyone denying most universities are deprioritizing instructional staff in favor of more expensive administrative staff?

Literally no one thinks college costs are not rising beyond what is reasonable. The devil of how to fix it is in the details.

I didn’t have time to dive into the report beyond the definitions, but what came to mind immediately was that they had bundled a lot of things into student services that aren’t really alike. Why not break out “amenities” like pools, Recreation centers, movie theaters, etc from things like supportive services (mental and physical health, etc.) for example?

Other semi obvious questions:

How much admin overhead is going to complying with federal and state laws and regulations versus implementing the recreation and cultural services program?

Are costs for student services like remedial class work and tutoring going up because students are less prepared for college?

Why haven’t states implemented policies to cap tuition increases since they do have to increase their budget allocations as costs rise?

[rod9301]

So how do we get trustees an others to stop going for flashy things? I see way more admins prioritizing things that give them press releases than cost control measures.

By reducing the student loans available.
If they are not so easy to get, people will start looking at college tuition and decide what school to go to instead of feeling" it don't cost nothing, you fucking finance it!"
From ruthless people, the movie.

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[J. Barron DeJong]

https://studentaid.gov/debt-relief/application

[BC.]

Periodic roll out…so get used to the three words:

“Check back later”

*Update….”Check back later” wasn’t too bad…lol.

I’m done/2kids

[J. Barron DeJong]

Periodic roll out…so get used to the three words:

“Check back later”

It’s open right now. Get some!

[SkiLyft]

Done. That was easy.


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[Supermoon]

Yeah super easy

[MultiVerse]

Literally no one thinks college costs are not rising beyond what is reasonable. The devil of how to fix it is in the details.

I didn’t have time to dive into the report beyond the definitions, but what came to mind immediately was that they had bundled a lot of things into student services that aren’t really alike. Why not break out “amenities” like pools, Recreation centers, movie theaters, etc from things like supportive services (mental and physical health, etc.) for example?

Other semi obvious questions:

How much admin overhead is going to complying with federal and state laws and regulations versus implementing the recreation and cultural services program?

Are costs for student services like remedial class work and tutoring going up because students are less prepared for college?

Why haven’t states implemented policies to cap tuition increases since they do have to increase their budget allocations as costs rise?

American universities are plagued by self-reinforcing growth created by administrators who consume funds for "noninstructional activities" which are now nearly 70% of costs. They use their bureaucratic power to control faculty by overblowing any complaints. It's destroying American academic life:

as universities substitute administrators for faculty and boost their outlays for administration at twice the rate for faculty. Responsibility, not just for processing Federal Student Aid forms and parking permits, but for the process of forming young minds, is being transferred from the faculty, selected for the originality and quality of their thought, to administrators who can be swiftly “deselected” should their expressed views depart from the orthodoxy. Today, even tenure-track faculty must think twice about the reaction of administrators as they conduct independent research, speak in the classroom, or express opinions.

....

What are we getting for this huge commitment of resources to administrators rather than classroom teachers? Today most universities lack core courses in the basics, but they do eagerly issue speech “guidelines”—overseen by the new bureaucracy—to police how faculty conduct classes. Similarly, campus administrators are reshaping students’ lives in their campus residences, mandating student attendance at freshman orientation sessions and panels aimed at forming morals and attitudes on subjects ranging from sexuality to identity to “privilege.” Last fall at a Princeton event administrators required some students to identify themselves as scions of privilege.

Indeed, much of what looks to outsiders like student-led protests and campaigns is in fact the product of the determination of the new administrative class to shape campus norms and priorities according to their own beliefs and preferences—which not coincidentally make the case for the importance of their own jobs.

[Supermoon]

Yeah, I don’t think that’s it

[MultiVerse]

It is, though. The main cause for rising tuition costs outpacing inflation 3X is 'suffocating bureaucratic displacement.'

[rod9301]

It is, though. The main cause for rising tuition costs outpacing inflation 3X is 'suffocating bureaucratic displacement.'

Yeah, this, but caused by loan availability

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[::: :::]

Yeah, this, but caused by loan availability

I agree

[MultiVerse]

Yeah, this, but caused by loan availability

Yes and no. As currently structured, the student loan system in America increases costs because universities themselves have no skin in the game. However, the absence of loans would only serve to reinforce a sort of class system where only the children of wealthy parents can afford college. On the flip side, if public college were free then quality, quantity, and equity would suffer. We know that's true in both scenarios because there are natural experiments and real world examples demonstrating the undesirable outcomes of bad policy.

[BC.]

So if I have a kid that is a senior right now.. (that has minimal loan b/c we were paying it) that is planning on grad school, should I wait and file for forgiveness after she takes out loans next fall?….so she can can get the whole 10,000 forgiven eventually?

Or…have a junior…(with minimal loans b/c we were paying it)…and take out loans next fall/ and just apply next fall so can take advantage of the 10,000 amount.

It says u can apply up until 12/31/23……If I’m reading it right, for both kids, we should just wait until next fall so we can take advantage of the entire 10,000 forgiven?

[doebedoe]

So if I have a kid that is a senior right now.. (that has minimal loan b/c we were paying it) that is planning on grad school, should I wait and file for forgiveness after she takes out loans next fall?….so she can can get the whole 10,000 forgiven eventually?

Or…have a junior…(with minimal loans b/c we were paying it)…and take out loans next fall/ and just apply next fall so can take advantage of the 10,000 amount.

It says u can apply up until 12/31/23……so we should just wait until we can take advantage of the entire 10,000?

the 10k is for existing loans. No new loans will be eligble.

[BC.]

the 10k is for existing loans. No new loans will be eligble.

Yes..thx. I did read that…sorry…

*Done..you guys were right/easy. 2 kids done.

[rod9301]

Yes and no. As currently structured, the student loan system in America increases costs because universities themselves have no skin in the game. However, the absence of loans would only serve to reinforce a sort of class system where only the children of wealthy parents can afford college. On the flip side, if public college were free then quality, quantity, and equity would suffer. We know that's true in both scenarios because there are natural experiments and real world examples demonstrating the undesirable outcomes of bad policy.

I don't are that free college is bad.

Sure there will be less people attending, but is this so bad?

There are plenty of people that would be better off working as an electrician for 100k a year than doing who knows what for 30k with a useless degree.

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[Cisco Kid]

Amazing insight. And the perks. I know an electrician in NYC who paid for a trip the the Bahamas with copper "left over" from a wiring jobs.

[::: :::]

Yes and no. As currently structured, the student loan system in America increases costs because universities themselves have no skin in the game. However, the absence of loans would only serve to reinforce a sort of class system where only the children of wealthy parents can afford college. On the flip side, if public college were free then quality, quantity, and equity would suffer. We know that's true in both scenarios because there are natural experiments and real world examples demonstrating the undesirable outcomes of bad policy.

I’m not following the refutation half of your reply

If no loans, there’s no (or at least significantly less) arms race for increasing attendance & manipulating acceptance rates & bloating campus amenities in the name of value. Nor is there the extra cash flow (nor rationale) for increasing admin staff out of proportion with faculty.

Also, the assumption that academia works on a capitalist metric may not be accurate.

[MultiVerse]

- If there's no loans and college isn't free then there's little chance for people with limited means to attend and graduate even if college is more affordable in the future.

- If on the other hand college is free then quality, quantity, and equity inevitably suffer because that would lead to price controls on tuition (paid through taxes) due to the fact there's no majority political constituency willing to foot the bill for the hefty spending it would require.

- So rather than a capitalist metric, it has to be something more like the Purdue model where instead of making major cuts universities find lots of small ways to cut costs and increase quality at the same time, instead of the current model that starts with increasing tuition followed by then also increasing aid.