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The asym and the shape has as much to do with the ease as the width. Other skis can be wide, but do not have RES and this taper/asym style mixed in.Quote:
Originally Posted by MHSP1497
Can’t believe how much this ski has evolved since the first re-design Scott and I did waaaaay back. Each tweak (4 CD versions) we made it better by some strange stroke of luck [emoji6]
a comparison between w114s and the new C&D would be interesting :)
thanks for sharing the stoke though! Nice pics too :)
They are not soft. They flex pretty much just like my BG Tours which are barely softer than stock BG. Don't let that scare you as they have so much carbon in them it makes up the difference for me with the thinner core profile.Quote:
Originally Posted by auvgeek
I am sitting at 190lbs right now and I wouldn't even mind them a tad softer in super fluff. But for versatility the flex is dialed on the tour flex CD versions.
Dang this seems like the wrens and C&Ds might be a better quiver since my BGs only come out on deep days.
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I’ve been rocking Wren 108, Wren 114, and CD now the last two weeks (5 days of skiing or so).Quote:
Originally Posted by bskin
I really only use my BG Tour on touring days now and have two days this year. I find myself reaching for the Wren 114 a LOT more these days.
Well the BGs will move fast if I go that route.Quote:
Originally Posted by PowTron
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Any thoughts on the Wren 114’s vs 108’s?
I don’t tend to mind wide skis so the 114’s are quite tempting for a soft and variable charger ski.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowTron
Thanks MHSP and PowTron for your reviews! Pulled the trigger on last pair of C&D on Evo today. Just couldn’t wait any longer with all the good vibes and new snow. I just hope I don’t regret not getting the SuperGoats instead. Still a little worried about too soft of flex and too short. Always liked long and relatively stiff skis. Also on bigger days, I am one of the few that likes 125 plus width underfoot.
I will write up review vs my current Atlas 192 I ski on powder days. Also have 195 Praxis Powder boards and a have a small amount of time on 196 protest. Will write a little review once I mount up the new C&D with comparisons.
Right on, man. You will not be disappointed. It’s hard to put into words just how much fun these skis are. Confidence inspiring. Make you feel like Bart Simpson’s pet elephant, “Stampy,” because they stomp everything. Don’t overthink and just enjoy...Quote:
Originally Posted by tlr
[QUOTE Don’t overthink and just enjoy...[/QUOTE]
You can’t overthink the most important decision of your life! :)
Had a Wren 108 stompy chargy smeary all around stable playful platform epiphany in ec pow today. Really blown away w what ON3P is up to these days. Impressed is an understatement.
Will my 115 mm brakes on look p18 I have sitting around be wide enough for C&D?
The w108's are killer for sure. These have become my daily drivers. I bought them from Aever. I think they were warranty replacements or something after he jumped on a rock. I wonder if they’re actually less stiff than the current model because I can’t imagine needing them to be stiffer. Flex about the same as my 1.5 supergoats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doremite
Attachment 265653
Supergoats have been rad lately too, but they’re a bit of an adjustment from the wren. You can push as hard as you want on the wrens whereas the goats want a centered stance.
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Goats are a riot in deep and funky snow. Wrens are good in pow too, great in variable, really makes me want to ride the w114's.
I supposed I should thank you. I feel like I just made $799 since I didn’t donate it to Evo. [emoji16]Quote:
Originally Posted by tlr
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Interesting response. I had the last Wren 108 in a 189 (16-17 I think) and they were noticeably softer than my current Asym 189 BG’s. Also, ON3P site says that the BG and Wren 108 have the same flex pattern 7-9-8. I wonder if the mellower rocker profile has anything to do with the perceived stiffer flex of the Wren? Regardless, seems like a rocking quiver you have going on!Quote:
Originally Posted by jackattack
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my experience with 2018 w108s was that the shovels on the 184 were a fair bit softer than those on the 179s. I dunno if that was by design, variations in materials or if w108s 179s were made later on. 2018 and 2019 w108s in 179 feel really similar when hand flexing, as mentioned previously. The only difference is a slight difference in underfoot flex, though that might just be a slightly stiffer front making the center flex ever so slightly differently. The 2018 iteration was fine by me, so it will be interesting to try the new ones. My custom stiffer pre-asym BGs in 184 were also a bit softer than my asym 179s, but that was probably just due to the latter not being worn in :) I sold both BGs though.
I am really curious how the new C&Ds compliments w114s. That sounds like a really good one two wider quiver punch to me.
You are welcome BanditMan! :) you are not out of the woods yet. When wife finds out about the purchase, some C&D will be up for sale on gearswap.
sell something else...
So I took the C&D’s out today on a decidedly BG kinda day, just to see how they were. Surprisingly, they were great. Made for slightly sore knees from riding firm groomers, but were otherwise well mannered. When I could find stashes of soft snow, they were epic. Interestingly, they tore thru the chop at Mach looney just like my BG’s do but felt more solid. These are still my favorite skis and I suspect I’ll be riding them in more conditions where they’re egregiously fat, but just oh so much fun that I don’t care. I brought the BG’s and thought about going to the car to swap out, but was enjoying myself enough to let it go...
Also had a chance to evaluate the mogul performance of these C&D’s. They swing around really well and enable “follow the rivers” well enough. Not an ideal ski, but capable enough that getting thru them isn’t terrifying. Pick thru them carefully until you see an opening then, point and go and fly away.
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Maybe not too obvious, but took a bit of a TGR break this fall, so back to finally get caught up on a lot of pages. Sorry for the length on this one.
18/19 Wren profile is quite a bit stiffer than the 16/17 and 17/18 through the forebody of both the tip and tail. It's really noticeable when you drive the skis and how the skis hold in a turn. The very tips are similar but the stiffness change from around 40-70cm into the skis makes a pretty big change in how hard you can drive the skis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandit Man
Those 3-point flex profiles are fine for a macro view of flex, but it's hard for them to convey the differences between models or years. We're trying to work on a better way to show flex for 2020.
Yes. We're putting 95mm brakes on 108s without stretching if needed. 115 should fit a CD. Any ski ordered with a 102mm width and down we automatically fulfill with 95mm brakes, even if 115 were ordered, because the brakes widths are not even remotely accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by tlr
Small fleet running out of CB this year, then a large fleet with a lot of days out of MT. Still working on some demo dates. Nothing running East of CO this year at least. They are a lot more financially and labor intensive then they look, and we’re just finding other methods of sellings skis goes a lot further on the dollar, so at this time likely going to just stick with the two west coast fleets. The number of resorts that will host us too only seems to be getting smaller, so we’ll see what the future holds.Quote:
Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un
At this time, no Cease & Desist in the demo fleets though. It’s far too small of a production run to work into demo fleets.
I believe the Attack 13 demos can do WTR and Gripwalk.
Same ski. Will apply to 2020 too.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyUte
If you need some base for a base weld, just email us and we will mail one out. Include a photo of the base and I will do our best to match the graphic.Quote:
Originally Posted by zartagen
Not right now but I did find a new 184 Steeple 116 from last year in a rack recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by margotron
In most cases I’ve seen, the people who struggle with BGs after enjoying Wrens are overdriving them and losing pressure on the rear part of the skis. If that is the case, you are purely skiing on the reserve section of the ski. The sidecut in the tail helps anchor the ski for stability so skiing them over the forebody is the ideal spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamTRuTH
No shops in the area, but might be possible Powder 7 or evo in Denver have a demo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blodhemn
If they have a tool to measure angle, they will know, but I would just tell em. Biggest key post shop tune is gonna be making sure they detune everything outside the running length. We’re seeing most shops run skis sharp all the way now with hardly a gummi detune.Quote:
Originally Posted by JaytaeMoney
If you want, let me send you a return label on them. Could even mail out a box for us. The only people I know of with continues edge issues from all of last you are you & ugly, so would love to see the skis in person if possible. We would of course retune them before sending them back.Quote:
Originally Posted by slowroastin
Back out to you this week so will be curious if it helps. The shop tune had basically full sharpness so not surprised they were scary post shop tune.Quote:
Originally Posted by SupreChicken
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Originally Posted by himavan
1/1 is the tune where we find the skis ski best for the most people. If you find you prefer them at 1/3, go for it. I have no issues with people adjusting it to their personal preference.Quote:
Originally Posted by crank54
Glad this was able to get solved. For our own info, was the feeling it was because the skis were edge high, or the edge was flat? Obviously pretty rare that we have tune issues, so would love to know more.Quote:
Originally Posted by uglymoney
I assume this is an additional tune after the first go round when REI sent the skis out super sharp?Quote:
Originally Posted by nomad_games
We’re trying to get people thinking about skis as a function of platform. It’s the reason we maintain ski widths between the different lines. The more important thing when buying the skis is mount/balance and how it fits what you do - and it’s very different between the BG and Kartel.Quote:
Originally Posted by robnow
We’re slowing working on this again, but for now, a lot of other ski designs in the works ahead of it. Core stuff takes time to dial, as we need to get a long term cycle on the skis to see how camber, flex, etc all hold up.Quote:
Originally Posted by jorion
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by beasttowest
We did just build (3) pairs of 189cm CD with black tops to get a few more available.Quote:
Originally Posted by tlr
I just always tell people to ski within the limits of the ski. If you stay in the forebody and drive from there, you carve nice. If you drive past that, you lose the radius in the tail and they wander.Quote:
Originally Posted by CascadeLuke
I was seeing someone on here recently too who was I believe around 5’6” on a 186cm from 2015ish and really struggled with them wander. Similar type problem, just on the other end of the spectrum. If you are too small and cannot get the skis to flex, they will also wander.
It’s definitely a design that requires a certain style on hardpack, but then again, I...don’t really care about hardpack.
Not sure we have time to build more mogul skis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leavenworth Skier
I’d likely lean 181. That would be the most natural do-it-all ski for the West. I could see considering going longer for the powder skis, but you are so light that unless you really like to drive your skis, you wouldn’t need it.Quote:
Originally Posted by himavan
Our 181cm will be the same length as Moment 184cm.
Bibby is sort of like a Wren/Kartel mix, IMO. More progressive mount, but larger radius. I always felt is fell in between a Kartel and BG/Wren and isn’t really a direct competitor to either, regarding the platform and radius.Quote:
Originally Posted by auvgeek
Metal is blowing some minds in here for sure. That said, as things current stand, I think we will continue to offer both. I still maintain, for a good portion of people (likely the majority), the non-metal will be the more ideal ski. Metal really upping stability and edge hold, but makes the ski a bit more one-dimensional. That is what a lot of people want on the Wren, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by TBS
Like I said, though, metal layups have been blowing some peoples minds.
Both years had a tour layup, but this year’s flexes stiffer because of the decreased rocker. Unless you are really heavy, I wouldn’t worry on the flex.Quote:
Originally Posted by tlr
2019 CD vs previous years comes down to snow. Do you cat ski year round? Go old skis. Do you ski in bounds? Go new skis. New ski loses a bit of top end pow performance, but we wanted to make a powder ski real skiers could use, not just a ski we dream about using.
If you like the balance of the 116 and want something more hard snow oriented, 96 is great.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliBrit
Yep.Quote:
Originally Posted by TahoeJ
Agreed. Wren line is my favorite graphic this year. To be honest, though, we pretty well tapped that Supergoat market and most people don’t even know it is there.Quote:
Originally Posted by kid-kapow
The rocker description is just a general term related to it’s design (more rocker in the tip, less in the tail). Different rocker profiles between to two series.Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleLanTheman
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Originally Posted by PNW-skier78
^Quote:
Originally Posted by detuned
We’ll release more when we actually have a real timeline. Going as fast as we can, but takes time on a whole new core profile like this. It will be out when its ready.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtskibum16
It adds a ton of damping to the ride. We’re not going the way of some other skis that are going super super light core material with metal. Still 100% bamboo core - with the metal inset into the core material.Quote:
Originally Posted by kid-kapow
Weight wise, a bit early to say as we’re still finalizing the core but don’t expect extra weight.
That Wren was mounted like -14 or something crazy, so probably that.Quote:
Originally Posted by freerideskiing
Wren 114 is a gun. It’s the most stable ski we make. Should also note - it won’t be available in the future, except on custom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tailwind
Maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by optics
We generally burn the boats, so that stuff is all gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by optics
161cm Jessie 108 will be back. 176cm Jessie 108 is gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by skimanguydude
Any improvements on this?Quote:
Originally Posted by MHSP1497
Not many people interested in skis over 25m, even for a small brand like ours. We even get a lot of people who ask for essentially a 21m Wren 108 even. I know it has been said on here a lot, but TGR sales vs general skiing market sales are pretty different.Quote:
Originally Posted by auvgeek
My feeling too. For a 108 directional ski, Wrens do well in powder, but they really are designed as a do it all ski, where BG is soft snow specific and just has a ton more surface area in the forebody to float on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeeze
Yep. It could function as a powder ski in areas with room to run.Quote:
Originally Posted by PowTron
Two things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen1978
Size wise, you should be on the 186cm.
Trying skiing them a bit more balanced. If you are over driving them, at your height/weight on a 181cm, you are likely finding that the ski isn’t long enough in the tips to act as a proper counter lever. That is going to cause them to wander and fold a bit.
I would just focus on the mount and radius. Wren = driven tips and big radius. Kartel = balanced and tight radius. Style can change by snow condition - so if you want something more playful and fun when the snow is hard, Kartel probably gets the nod.Quote:
Originally Posted by Backward_Banana
Stiffer than they look. Those guys are just able to flex skis in ways most cannot.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2FUNKY
Glad to hear you ended up enjoying the skis. Obviously we sell a lot of different models to a variety of different skier types.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdubmpdx
Money wise, the difference between a 20 minute park movie and 20 minute big mountain movie would end up being into the many thousands of dollars (no joke) so just not really in the cards at the moment. We’re obviously working to get a few other non-park athletes in the game, but cost is substantial and, at least with 3, the goal was to make a park specific movie based upon the vibe of friends together on a trip to Oregon. 2 obviously featured a segment filmed in Japan, and we we’ve done things like the 3-part Japan movie in the past.
Re: breweries or other people helping to foot the bill - these are things we of course go after, but nothing in that realm of interest thus far. At this point, it’s hard work to just get people hill with tickets covered, even in exchange for literally millions of impressions on social media and often times skis + cash. Just the way the ski industry is. We’re working on getting better at it, but nothing is given.
Even so, we still sell more all mountain skis than park specific skis by quite a bit.
It was and remains fascinating to me to see the reactions to some of the content we put out - as if the definition of what skiing should be is fixed on one side.Quote:
Originally Posted by kid-kapow
It always felt weird to me to have a us vs you feel to discussions on skiing content. The more the merrier for me. I’m glad there is a bit spectrum of skiers getting after it.
And yes, as noted, a lot of the athlete content that is more mainstream is on the more powder end. For ON3P produced content, obviously the only way we can swing it is to do so at bottom dollar.
That is it for now. Hope everyone has a good MLK.
“Any improvements on this?”
She hasn’t been out on them again as conditions and timing of her days off have yet to correlate. I took a quick lap on them the other day and they felt just like my 184’s, only with that same round flex as my C&D’s due to the tour layup. She’s coming up to Whistler with me at the end of the month, so hopefully she’ll get to give ‘em another go.
Her complaint was was that they felt “too locked” into a line and she was having trouble breaking them off that line to turn, which was why I thought to de-tune them further. Will definitely post her thoughts once she’s given them another chance.
Is there still something coming that will make all the wren kartel tweeners happy or do I just forget about that and continue bathing in the glory my wren 108s.
I notice that the reply wrt to brand management, customer perception vs projected brand image in a world of increased tribalism due to social media / reward pathway induced behavior is just going to be too long and probably not add anything that you or anybody else already aren't aware of, so I will not bore you with it :) I find the topic to be very interesting though - psychology meets marketing meets social dynamics. In a world of (widely differing) social norms and group & indidivudal identities, the us vs them effect is kinda inevitable though.Quote:
Originally Posted by iggyskier
Oh well eh - one cannot be all things to everybody, or please everybody all the time. The risk of alienating some while catering to others is kinda par for the course. Reaction means engagement which means interest - so if nothing else, feedback of any sort is mostly a positive. The alternative is disengagement - aka stop supporting a brand. Yay marketing and branding creating new issues while fixing others ;)
I have been really curious how w114 were selling. I guess this partially answers that question. Still, I am beyond excited that you offered em this year - cannot wait to try them!Quote:
Originally Posted by iggyskier