50 years to the day

[highangle]

They're getting what they voted for.

[mcski]

The war criminal has nominated the bomb dropping felon for a peace prize.

[riser4]

When people say “Free Palestine” my response is to add: “From Hamas”


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I just know to stay away from them. I don't engage because either they want the total destruction of Israel or they are useful idiots and don't realize what they are truly supporting. Just like I stay away from the Israelis who want to completely take over the West Bank.

[californiagrown]

Hamas are the bad guys, asshole.

Remove the THE from that sentence and thats something we can all agree on.

[summit]

Everyone in the world is some level of bad.

Equivocation is fucking dangerous.

Talking about Netanyahu as if he is Putin is fucked.

You could maybe debate if Putin is more awful than Hamas.

If Putin died, *maybe* the power vacuum outcomes could result in a peace in Ukraine, but maybe not.

But wishing death on Netanyahu as if it is going to bring peace in the face of Hamas is completely and absolutely fucked.

[californiagrown]

Everyone in the world is some level of bad. Equivocation is fucking dangerous. Talking about Netanyahu as if he is Putin is fucked. You could maybe debate if Putin is more awful than Hamas. If Putin died, *maybe* the power vacuum outcomes could result in a peace in Ukraine, but maybe not. But wishing death on Netanyahu as if it is going to bring peace in the face of Hamas is completely and absolutely fucked.

Do you think its good for a world leader (with a history of wars) to remain in power for 30 years? I certainly don't. Russia and Israel are both top 5 most influential countries in the world, and they have had 1 leader/ruler for the last 3 decades which have been rife with violence, controversy, global condemnation, and expansionist actions. You could say the same thing about the USA (and probably should), but at least we switch up our leaders to try and get away from being only known for those things.

Im gonna pick a number and say that no leader should be in power for more than 12 years. And that is especially the case if that leader is domestically and internationally controversial with a history of shady dealings, war, and inflammatory rhetoric.

[riser4]

But wishing death on Netanyahu as if it is going to bring peace in the face of Hamas is completely and absolutely fucked.

You and I agree on this.

While I absolutely don't condone political assistanation, targeting Hamas leadership is not that. Hamas leadership are valid military targets, and actually could lead to peace, maybe, sometime way, way down the road. The high number of civilian casualties is going to make it difficult. And yes, that's already been addressed, Hamas is entrenched among civilians on purpose. I get that.

I just want Bibi out of power, not dead. I feel like he's using the war to keep himself out of jail for his pre-existing legal issues. Same reason Donny wormed his way back in to POTUS. Stay out of jail.

I don't disagree that something needs to be done about Hamas. I do disagree with Bibi's position regarding the West Bank and what's been accelerating there since 10/7, not to mention the last 20 or so years. I'm very opposed to Israeli settlements because while nobody there seems to want it, a two state solution is the only palatable way out of this. Otherwise it only ends when everyone is dead on one or both sides. I'm both not OK with that and I'm fucking sick of it.

[ex-powderbroker]

CG, you’d have a point if it wasn’t for Bennet, Olmert, Barak, and a few others.

No one wants to defend Bibi but painting him as Putin, Hitler, or Pol Pot is not fair. He’s more like a shitty Brazilian leader who does a term in office and then is [emoji641][emoji646] / [emoji641][emoji646] to go to jail after.

There will be an Israel after Bibi and it doesn’t involve him dying.

[summit]

riser: I agree with everything you wrote! Adding to it, on the two state solution, yea that seems like the only viable thing long term. And as to nobody involved wanting it, that is sadly the case now. I think the Israelis really wanted a two state solution and worked very hard for it while the PLO and then the PA paid lip service to wanting it, but turned it down repeatedly. The Israelis wanted it so bad they started to just pretend it was happen by fait accompli, pulling out of Gaza and handing authority to the PA. But Hamas chose war and then you got Netanyahu in power having to make coalitions with the pro-settler parties, not that I'm casting him solely as a victim of circumstance because I don't think he is opposed to settlements.

[liv2ski]

Talking about Netanyahu as if he is Putin is fucked.

Yesterday I read a short article where a politician in the Israeli Knesset stated all Palestinians in Gaza need to leave or die. This is what Nuttyyahoo has done to that countries policies. IMO they are all war criminals at this point, as Israel has gone way over the line for retaliating against Hamas. They are waaaaaay worse than Putin in their systematic extermination of the Palestinians. You go ahead and justify their actions, as you have an obvious lack or morals too. Out for a few more weeks, as commenting in this thread is a waste.

[californiagrown]

No one wants to defend Bibi but painting him as Putin, Hitler, or Pol Pot is not fair.

Never compared him to hitler or pol pot. And frankly, putin isnt in the same category as pol pot or hitler.

What other recent leader, has been in power for 30 years, has significant sway on the world stage, and has an odor of corruption and humanitarian/war issues following them? Pootin, bibi, and maybe Xi, though Xi hasnt really had any wars on his watch.

Sure, pootin is worse than bibi. But they seem to be cut from similar cloth. I wasnt comparing their war crimes/Crimes against humanity- i was comparing two old men with an overly long, and outsized impact on the modern world whose time i wish was up years ago- seems more likely that natural causes will take them out than political/civil forces get them to release their grip on power. 30 years is too long for 1 person to be in power except in extraoridinary circumstances... that was the point.

[riser4]

riser: I agree with everything you wrote! Adding to it, on the two state solution, yea that seems like the only viable thing long term. And as to nobody involved wanting it, that is sadly the case now. I think the Israelis really wanted a two state solution and worked very hard for it while the PLO and then the PA paid lip service to wanting it, but turned it down repeatedly. The Israelis wanted it so bad they started to just pretend it was happen by fait accompli, pulling out of Gaza and handing authority to the PA. But Hamas chose war and then you got Netanyahu in power having to make coalitions with the pro-settler parties, not that I'm casting him solely as a victim of circumstance because I don't think he is opposed to settlements.

Bibi is definitely NOT the victim here. That's absurdly comical to even propose.

[summit]

^I agree.

[summit]

CAgrown: Netanyahu has been Prime Minister for 17 of the last 30 years in three different terms as per their parliamentary republic. Members of Parliament are elected by direct democracy with universal suffrage for citizens, and then parliament chooses the PM by majority vote. It's a multiparty system. I think they are most similar to Italy except they are unicameral instead of bicameral.

So while we agree they oughta term limit their PMs and leaders shouldn't be in charge longer than I'd actually say 10 years max, maybe only 8, IMHO, but that doesn't make comparable to Russia.

Putin has been in charge as a dictator in all but name for 25+ years straight.

[MultiVerse]

Israel has gone way over the line for retaliating against Hamas. They are waaaaaay worse than Putin in their systematic extermination of the Palestinians.

These statements are factually wrong. Not surprising given liv2ski's wasteland of twenty-one-thousand uninformed posts. A stupid stupid tankie. Israel's enemies pose an existential threat to the country. Ukraine poses not threat at all to Russia.

Israel is fighting a war of necessity. Putin is fighting a war of choice. The necessity faced by Israel after Iran & Hamas started a war of choice is tragic. Israel is fighting out of necessity, not retaliation, to remove Hamas from power and to dismantle Iran's proxies. Palestinian civilians killed in Hamas's war pale in comparison to Putin's war where a much larger region and many more cities have been completely depopulated.

Inevitably someone like Rod will cite statistics, but of course Hamas inflates theirs and Putin doesn't publish his. Many multiples more Ukrainians were killed in Mariupol alone than in all of Gaza. And Putin, of course, is not providing humanitarian aid to Ukraine like Israel is in Gaza. For Putin, attacking civilians serves no military purpose. Whereas destruction in Gaza results from Hamas embedding itself militarily inside, underneath, and among civilians & civilian infrastructure. Hamas themselves say maximum damage and maximum civilian casualties is their strategic war aim in order to convince simpletons like liv2ski to hate Israel.

That part of their strategy worked, but to no end. A Hamas official recently told the BBC Hamas lost control of 80-percent of Gaza, "“About the security situation, let me be clear: it has completely collapsed. Totally gone. There's no control anywhere.” Israel's critics said that couldn't happen. But it has. Hamas dismantled, Hezbollah decapitated, Iran's Assad gone, and Iran's nuclear weapons program set back several years. Israel had no choice but to fight a war no matter how much in denial those calling for restraint are about this reality.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gk79xlzwjo

[Cisco Kid]

And lets not overlook the tremendous beach front real estate opportunities that killing them all will offer. So our POTUS has said.

[J. Barron DeJong]

And lets not overlook the tremendous beach front real estate opportunities that killing them all will offer. So our POTUS has said.

... and Bibi has endorsed.

[rod9301]

United nations estimates that 13,000 Ukrainian civilians were killed from 2022 to May 2025.

So that's 3 years.

Israel killed 50,000 + in Gaza in one year.

Sent from my motorola edge 2024 using Tapatalk

[m2711c]

It is odd to watch an ai bot spout off about “reality”.

[MultiVerse]

The part Rod leaves out, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) emphasizes that this is a minimum confirmed figure, and the real number is significantly higher.

Neither Trump's Gaza-a-logo statement nor "killing them all" is based on reality,. And Bibi has since discussed much more realistic plans for rebuilding Gaza for Gazans.

[summit]

From MV’s point that the Gaza War was a war of choice by Hamas and Iran, and not a war of retaliation by Israel, but one of necessity to “regime change” Hamas: I could reiterate my post that illustrates why the whole concept of proportional response is unethical.

Instead, let’s look at the aims of each party prior to the war and then again now:

Prewar:

Israel’s aim with Gaza: increase cooperation and worker flow, increase economic ties, continue to allow autonomy with a mixture of outlooks depending on political party: an ultimate goal of a 2 state solution (TSS), or in Netanyahu’s view, hope that Hamas stays on their side of the fence while being a counter to the PA to prevent a TSS, but still maintain peace.

Hamas’s aim: Kill as many Israelis as possible, take as many hostages as possible, launch as many rockets as possible, with the goal of triggering a massive response, end Saudi recognition and diplomacy efforts, ultimately isolating Israel while also triggering a regional war where Iran’s other proxies would directly attack and push their host nations into war that would ultimately crush the nation of Israel and allow Hamas to rule from the River to the Sea, ejecting or killing any Jews in the region.

Current state:

Israel’s aim with Gaza: Eliminate Hamas. Free hostages. Secure against future attack with TSS off the table until a fundamental change is seen. Yes there are minority extremist anti-Palestinian views and there are also still pro-TSS views.

Hamas’s aim: Achieve status ante-bellum with all Israelis out of Gaza, Hamas in control of borders, and in control of aid... kill/terrorize Palestinian opposition... all to allow for preparation of the next war.

Nothing above is controversial... is pretty flipping obvious.

What is NOT obvious is how people like L2S et al imagine Israel could achieve their security aims, much less a peaceful TSS, with Hamas in control.

[mcski]

hamas can certainly cause pain and death, but saying they are an existential threat to the country strongest military in the region is hyperbole by a country mile

[MultiVerse]

That wasn't the argument though, was it? Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria's Assad, Iran's ballistic missiles, all did—and would if they reconstitute—pose an existential threat. Israel has since reshaped the regional map.

[ex-powderbroker]

if they believe they are an existential threat to Israel because of a self inflated evaluation of their capabilities or because god is on their side or anything else they still have the ability to cause a lot of misery. and that’s what’s happened, whether directing suicide bombings, launching missiles, abducting soldiers, etc etc.

pretty tough to live side by side with people like that who hold no regard for you or their own. in any case, hopefully they’re actually gone. the sooner that happens the sooner all of these dinosaurs are gone.

[summit]

mcski: You believe Hamas can "only" cause great injury, death, suffering, and terror, and not the total elimination of Israel, at least, not directly.

But then what should Israel do? You don't think it is valid for them to get rid of Hamas? Or is it your belief that Israel should therefor not permanently remove Hamas from power and instead forever live under constant and future attack from Hamas, and wall off Gaza, and play whack a mole bombing rocket sites and storage depots that are usually intentionally co-located with sensitive civilian infrastructure? Or is that not what you are arguing for? Then what are you actually arguing for? I mean besides the simple "I don't like what Israel is doing!" that doesn't seem to include a "what they should do instead is..."???