Anyone have anything they'd like to rant about?

[Flounder]

But in 20 years when self driving cars are more ubiquitous, a lot of this conversation will be moot.

40+ years ago I was promised self driving, flying cars. We have neither. Pretty sure we will still be having some form of this conversation in 20 years.

[Lvovsky]

Does anyone know anyone who got a ticket for texting/using phone while driving? I have not heard of such tickets ever.

[rideit]

Fuck, one of our (sorta) friends got FOUR, and they revoked her license. And still fucking does it.
She’s an entitled, blonde/blue eyed Buckhead gal, thinks she can flirt her way out of it.
Jackson police will pull you over in a heartbeat for this.

[Lvovsky]

I stand corrected.

Good to know some police departments give a fuck.

[jm2e]

Jackson police will pull you over for being an entitled blond Atlantan? Vicious.


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[Roxtar]

40+ years ago I was promised self driving, flying cars. We have neither. Pretty sure we will still be having some form of this conversation in 20 years.

60 years ago we were promised bionics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cqKmi0TSDA
Still waiting

[yeahman]

I stand corrected.

Good to know some police departments give a fuck.

My kid got one. And I was glad.

[Canada1]

Does anyone know anyone who got a ticket for texting/using phone while driving? I have not heard of such tickets ever.

I have seen a couple cases where people were killed or severely injured in accidents with tickets and criminal consequence. I have not seen a situation where someone hadn't f'd up in some way and they got a ticket. Only as tag on's to already really bad situations.

[rideit]

Jackson police will pull you over for being an entitled blond Atlantan? Vicious.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Everyone around here is looking for a sugar momma, bro

[rideit]

30 pound, 100 mile e-bikes, here we come!

https://scitechdaily.com/scientists-...er-than-steel/

[skaredshtles]

30 pound, 100 mile e-bikes, here we come!

https://scitechdaily.com/scientists-...er-than-steel/

I'd wager that range will be even better than that when combined with:

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/su...plicated-twice

[J. Barron DeJong]

What’s with the price of high end road bikes these days?

Specifically, looking at the price to get a Dura-Ace bike vs Ultegra.

Most brand’s Dura-Ace pricing seems to be whack, but using Cannondale as an example:

Lab 71 SuperSix w/ Dura-Ace is $15,000 retail. SuperSix High-Mod w/Ultegra is $8300 retail.

For that $6700 difference you get:

- 40g lighter frame ($1500 higher retail on frame set, seems poor value)
- better group set (~$1000 purchased as standalone groups)
- ‘better’ integrated bar stem (~$100 price difference aftermarket)
- better saddle ($100 price difference)
- ceramicspeed BB of negligible value ($460 price difference)
- Fizik bar tape ($25 price difference)

So someone’s expected to pay $6700 more to get no more than $3200 worth of upgrades? And margins are smaller on bikes than parts, so the $3200 is overstated.

WTF is going on here?

[toast2266]

What’s with the price of high end road bikes these days?

Specifically, looking at the price to get a Dura-Ace bike vs Ultegra.

Most brand’s Dura-Ace pricing seems to be whack, but using Cannondale as an example:

Lab 71 SuperSix w/ Dura-Ace is $15,000 retail. SuperSix High-Mod w/Ultegra is $8300 retail.

For that $6700 difference you get:

- 40g lighter frame ($1500 higher retail on frame set, seems poor value)
- better group set (~$1000 purchased as standalone groups)
- ‘better’ integrated bar stem (~$100 price difference aftermarket)
- better saddle ($100 price difference)
- ceramicspeed BB of negligible value ($460 price difference)
- Fizik bar tape ($25 price difference)

So someone’s expected to pay $6700 more to get no more than $3200 worth of upgrades? And margins are smaller on bikes than parts, so the $3200 is overstated.

WTF is going on here?

The other $3500 is for the paint, so people are aware of your semi-conspicuous consumption. But not all people are aware - only the special people who know how much that color costs. Which makes it even more valuable.

[J. Barron DeJong]

The other $3500 is for the paint, so people are aware of your semi-conspicuous consumption. But not all people are aware - only the special people who know how much that color costs. Which makes it even more valuable.

Ahhh, but the flaw in your reasoning is that when you buy the upgraded frameset you also get the paint, so the douchebaggery signaling is included in that $1500 upgrade price.

Seriously though, I used to do purchasing for a shop back in the day, so I’d be comparing prices of different models within and across brands to decide what to bring in, and I don’t recall shit being like this.

[toast2266]

Ahhh, but the flaw in your reasoning is that when you buy the upgraded frameset you also get the paint, so the douchebaggery signaling is included in that $1500 upgrade price.

Seriously though, I used to do purchasing for a shop back in the day, so I’d be comparing prices of different models within and across brands to decide what to bring in, and I don’t recall shit being like this.

I dunno man, from what I can see, the $1500 gets you the all important Lab71 sticker, but it doesn't get you the "Marble Oxblood" color. You're stuck with "Black," "Black with WOW colors," or "EF Team Colors."

But yeah, road bike pricing is stupid. There's always been the "special edition" halo tier bikes that were insanely expensive. But I think bike companies have realized that there are a lot of people with a lot of disposable income that are relatively willing to throw gobs of money at status symbols. So the "normal" high end bikes have crept right up towards those halo tier bikes. Anyone who's willing to spend $15k on a road bike (or $6k on a road frame) deserves to get ripped off.

[J. Barron DeJong]

I dunno man, from what I can see, the $1500 gets you the all important Lab71 sticker, but it doesn't get you the "Marble Oxblood" color. You're stuck with "Black," "Black with WOW colors," or "EF Team Colors."

But yeah, road bike pricing is stupid. There's always been the "special edition" halo tier bikes that were insanely expensive. But I think bike companies have realized that there are a lot of people with a lot of disposable income that are relatively willing to throw gobs of money at status symbols. So the "normal" high end bikes have crept right up towards those halo tier bikes. Anyone who's willing to spend $15k on a road bike (or $6k on a road frame) deserves to get ripped off.

Ok, I stand corrected on the color. Maybe it’s made with a whole oxen worth of blood?

I remember halo tier bikes that had all the pro team bling parts, but there was always a non-halo dura-ace option as well - that’s what seems to have gone missing. Is there a Dura-Ace shortage or something, so that it only makes sense to spec it on the blinged out models?

I honestly have no reason to need Dura-Ace anyway, but given how rarely I’m buying a road bike, I’d be happy to spring to upgrade to it if the price reflected the actual cost/value.

[toast2266]

Ok, I stand corrected on the color. Maybe it’s made with a whole oxen worth of blood?

I remember halo tier bikes that had all the pro team bling parts, but there was always a non-halo dura-ace option as well - that’s what seems to have gone missing. Is there a Dura-Ace shortage or something, so that it only makes sense to spec it on the blinged out models?

I honestly have no reason to need Dura-Ace anyway, but given how rarely I’m buying a road bike, I’d be happy to spring to upgrade to it if the price reflected the actual cost/value.

I don't know much of anything about road bikes, but you can get a Canyon with Dura Ace and what looks to be a comparable spec to that cannondale for $6650. Unclear whether any virgin oxblood was mixed into the paint though. I'm guessing not.

You could get the Canyon, get the $6k Cannondale frame, swap the parts over, and still have $2500 to conspicuously spend on some Balenciaga jeans or something.

[J. Barron DeJong]

I don't know much of anything about road bikes, but you can get a Canyon with Dura Ace and what looks to be a comparable spec to that cannondale for $6650. Unclear whether any virgin oxblood was mixed into the paint though. I'm guessing not.

You could get the Canyon, get the $6k Cannondale frame, swap the parts over, and still have $2500 to conspicuously spend on some Balenciaga jeans or something.

Yep, I’d absolutely get a Dura-Ace Aeroad, but the geometry on XL and XXL is messed up - way longer and lower than any other bikes. And you’re stuck because they use a proprietary system integrated bar and stem, so no option to just put on a bit higher rise stem to make up for it.

Edit: Was distracted with kids and missed the second part. Getting a Canyon and swapping parts is probably the least expensive way for me to get a Dura-Ace bike that fits right now, but I’m against it on principle and hassle, and probably value saw well, depending on what I’d end up getting for the Canyon frameset.

[gramboh]

Road bike pricing has gone insane the last few years for sure, the Lab71 pricing is hilarious, especially in Canada. Does the Ultegra hi-mod have a power meter? The dual sided Dura Ace PM is some of the cost at least. What really gets me is the frame only pricing, it's just madness, the same or more than DH bikes that come with $1,000 shocks. Canyon has some decent value for sure, Aeroad with 50mm rims and Ultegra 12 speed Di2 with power meter for "acceptable" pricing is where I would be leaning if I was getting a new road bike.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Road bike pricing has gone insane the last few years for sure, the Lab71 pricing is hilarious, especially in Canada. Does the Ultegra hi-mod have a power meter? The dual sided Dura Ace PM is some of the cost at least. What really gets me is the frame only pricing, it's just madness, the same or more than DH bikes that come with $1,000 shocks. Canyon has some decent value for sure, Aeroad with 50mm rims and Ultegra 12 speed Di2 with power meter for "acceptable" pricing is where I would be leaning if I was getting a new road bike.

The Ultegra doesn’t have a power meter but as far as I can tell the Lab 71 doesn’t either. No mention of it in the description, and the component specs don’t list the crank as a ‘-p’

If Canyon would fix the geometry on the big bikes, or at least just offer a standalone stem that was compatible with their frame sets, I’d be on it.

[singlesline]

What’s with the price of high end road bikes these days?

Have there been any particularly important changes in road bikes in the last decade to justify the crazy prices?

I can't say I pay close attention, but what am I missing? I have zero interest in a 10yr old MTB, but a lot of that is driven by seemingly huge changes in geometry, componentry, wheel sizes, etc.
And $$$ MTBs have $$$ forks and shocks...

Obviously gravel bikes are still very much in geometry and feature flux, but what's really changing on true road machines?
-Still running 2x drivetrains. We've picked up a gear or two, but how much does that matter on a 2x? I can't say I really noticed the difference between 2x10 and 2x11. Electric shifting too, but all of these are upgrades you could slap on a 10 year old bike, and the higher end road groupsets of that era all shifted pretty good.
-Disc brakes were starting to be fairly common 10 years ago. UCI didn't allow them until later, but I saw them on lots of bikes. Also for 95% of fair weather riders, rim brakes are totally fine on the road.
- Tires have gotten wider, but even in like 2010, people were experimenting with wider profile rims that would happily take today's wider tires. Many could handle going tubeless with new tape.
- Carbon layups keep getting better, but there were plenty of good bikes and wheels available (like the old Zipp 303s)...and you could easily build bikes at the UCI weight limit (which many pros aren't even hitting these days).
- Through axles add some stiffness,
- I thought geometry was pretty dialed--there were changes over time on which bikes were marketed more to consumers (more CX bikes, more "endurance" bikes rather than race geo), but are there major differences between what dimensions make a good crit bike or a good stage race bike, or a good training endurance bike? I have no idea, but they certainly don't *look* different to my eye.

Is it just dentists and the need to have the hot new thing? Incremental improvements are great and of course the pros will want them--but what in the last decade really matters for some middle aged lycra clad dude who is getting out there a couple times a week, maybe signing up for the local century? $2k for a used older bike with top of the line parts seems like a killer deal...or get a decent older frameset and add a modern group and blingy wheelset...still not anywhere near $12k.

For the record, my current road/gravel bike is a custom steel frame designed circa 2011 with "raceable CX geometry" (ends up looking more like an "endurance" bike with tire clearance--lower BB than a true CX bike). Built up in 2013 with campy 2x11, stolen, recovered the frame, rebuilt in 2018 with SRAM 1x11 and a carbon disc fork as more of a general road/gravel bike. During the the interim period, I had a carbon 2014 Focus CX bike that seemed almost indistinguishable from a more modern bike other than the rim brakes.

I have ZERO temptation to spend many thousands of dollars to replace this bike. I might want to install a 12s drivetrain at some point for more range (or even *eewww* a front derailleur), but the only things that annoy me are: 1) it still uses a paul minimoto rear rim brake. This delivers perfectly adequate braking, but it means I can't run a hydro disc up front without having mismatched brifters and I'd love a little more power than my TRP Spyre can deliver. 2) the chain stays won't clear huge tires...a lot of the "gravel" riding around here involves some pretty rough stuff and a few extra mm would be nice. If I were exclusively riding it on the road, both of these would be non-issues.

[XXX-er]

Shop bro told me about the customer who bought a Pinerello Dogma which he painted the color ( Lamborghini yellow ) of his product or SFT, by the time he got finished spending all the money the bike was 35K but then that $$$$$ was an advertising expense

apparently if you can sell half a doz Dogma's every year Pinerello might send you a mahogany boxed bottle of Vallpolecella with SS utensils at Xmas

[J. Barron DeJong]

Have there been any particularly important changes in road bikes in the last decade to justify the crazy prices?

I can't say I pay close attention, but what am I missing? I have zero interest in a 10yr old MTB, but a lot of that is driven by seemingly huge changes in geometry, componentry, wheel sizes, etc.
And $$$ MTBs have $$$ forks and shocks...

Obviously gravel bikes are still very much in geometry and feature flux, but what's really changing on true road machines?
-Still running 2x drivetrains. We've picked up a gear or two, but how much does that matter on a 2x? I can't say I really noticed the difference between 2x10 and 2x11. Electric shifting too, but all of these are upgrades you could slap on a 10 year old bike, and the higher end road groupsets of that era all shifted pretty good.
-Disc brakes were starting to be fairly common 10 years ago. UCI didn't allow them until later, but I saw them on lots of bikes. Also for 95% of fair weather riders, rim brakes are totally fine on the road.
- Tires have gotten wider, but even in like 2010, people were experimenting with wider profile rims that would happily take today's wider tires. Many could handle going tubeless with new tape.
- Carbon layups keep getting better, but there were plenty of good bikes and wheels available (like the old Zipp 303s)...and you could easily build bikes at the UCI weight limit (which many pros aren't even hitting these days).
- Through axles add some stiffness,
- I thought geometry was pretty dialed--there were changes over time on which bikes were marketed more to consumers (more CX bikes, more "endurance" bikes rather than race geo), but are there major differences between what dimensions make a good crit bike or a good stage race bike, or a good training endurance bike? I have no idea, but they certainly don't *look* different to my eye.

Is it just dentists and the need to have the hot new thing? Incremental improvements are great and of course the pros will want them--but what in the last decade really matters for some middle aged lycra clad dude who is getting out there a couple times a week, maybe signing up for the local century? $2k for a used older bike with top of the line parts seems like a killer deal...or get a decent older frameset and add a modern group and blingy wheelset...still not anywhere near $12k.

For the record, my current road/gravel bike is a custom steel frame designed circa 2011 with "raceable CX geometry" (ends up looking more like an "endurance" bike with tire clearance--lower BB than a true CX bike). Built up in 2013 with campy 2x11, stolen, recovered the frame, rebuilt in 2018 with SRAM 1x11 and a carbon disc fork as more of a general road/gravel bike. During the the interim period, I had a carbon 2014 Focus CX bike that seemed almost indistinguishable from a more modern bike other than the rim brakes.

I have ZERO temptation to spend many thousands of dollars to replace this bike. I might want to install a 12s drivetrain at some point for more range (or even *eewww* a front derailleur), but the only things that annoy me are: 1) it still uses a paul minimoto rear rim brake. This delivers perfectly adequate braking, but it means I can't run a hydro disc up front without having mismatched brifters and I'd love a little more power than my TRP Spyre can deliver. 2) the chain stays won't clear huge tires...a lot of the "gravel" riding around here involves some pretty rough stuff and a few extra mm would be nice. If I were exclusively riding it on the road, both of these would be non-issues.

There are a few things I think I’d appreciate on a completely up to date new bike, and 12sp is one since I’d fully make use of the wider gear range available pretty much every ride, and would appreciate the small cog jumps it allows.

And I’m just not stoked on the idea of replacing my very outdated current bike with a moderately outdated new bike.

But really my issue isn’t that technology has lead to unnecessarily expensive bikes that consumers don’t need, it’s that the companies pricing on those top end builds are just completely out of line with the value of the upgrades vs the next step down. It’s like they’re just hoping the customer won’t realize they’re being fleeced.

[singlesline]

There are a few things I think I’d appreciate on a completely up to date new bike, and 12sp is one since I’d fully make use of the wider gear range available pretty much every ride, and would appreciate the small cog jumps it allows.

But you can get away with doing just a drivetrain upgrade there, right?

At least some 130mm road hubs have XD/XDR drivers available and there are several 12s cassettes out there that fit a 11s freehub as long as you don't need the 10t cog.

I'm considering that myself on my bike as a way to get a pinch more top end while preserving a low climbing gear and acceptable gear spacing. The only thing holding me back is money and a desire to avoid electronic shifting on a bike I don't ride often and am sure to forget to recharge.
I haven't researched extensively, but I don't think there's a mechanical (shift AND brake) 1x12 setup that works with the cassettes I'd be interested in...maybe there's an Apex option or some older Force/Rival parts that aren't listed on SRAM's website anymore.

[J. Barron DeJong]

But you can get away with doing just a drivetrain upgrade there, right?

At least some 130mm road hubs have XD/XDR drivers available and there are several 12s cassettes out there that fit a 11s freehub as long as you don't need the 10t cog.

I'm considering that myself on my bike as a way to get a pinch more top end while preserving a low climbing gear and acceptable gear spacing. The only thing holding me back is money and a desire to avoid electronic shifting on a bike I don't ride often and am sure to forget to recharge.
I haven't researched extensively, but I don't think there's a mechanical (shift AND brake) 1x12 setup that works with the cassettes I'd be interested in...maybe there's an Apex option or some older Force/Rival parts that aren't listed on SRAM's website anymore.

No way I’m upgrading my current bike - it’s a 2005. And there are other things I’d appreciate on a new bike like aero wheels and frame, disc brakes, etc. None of it is necessary.

I get that there are lots of way to get where I want to be in the end. My annoyance really just has to do with the companies pricing structure (and the fact that Canyon fucked up the geometry of the XL frame size and then locked it in with a proprietary integrated cockpit, so I can’t directly take advantage of the one company that has reasonable pricing.)

And to be clear, I know Canyon is always going to be cheaper than a non-direct-to-consumer brand. It’s not the absolute price I’m annoyed with. It’s that someone like Cannondale is charging twice as much for the same level of upgrades as Canyon, and twice as much as they and the component manufacturers say the upgrades are worth based on what they sell for individually (unless Toast is right and the paint alone on that Lab 71 complete bike is worth $3k more than the paint offerings on a Lab 71 frame. But if it is, then that’s a $9k frameset, so fuck them for that too.)