Student Loan Forgiveness

[I Skied Bandini Mountain]

Here we go with the red hatter "boot strap" crowd denigrating higher education again. Gee, I wonder why the orange shitstain said "I love the poorly educated".

Plenty of people come out of 2 year programs with a ton of student loans, but it's convenient to only bring up the barista with a philosophy degree trope for the mouth breathing base.

Fact of the matter is, only those with a magical belief in the fairy tale of an invisible god in the sky, or a financial matter pushed by a billionaire benefactor will receive a favorable ruling in this corrupt pay-to-play supreme court.

[californiagrown]

Doing what??

FWIW one of the senior project managers (early 40s) here at my engineering firm has an AA. He just doesnt stamp anything. Or senior CAD manager makes close to 200k and also has an AA. I could go on.

IME, the degree helps to get you in the door, but performance and initiative/ambition is what makes people rise to the top. Its just also no coincidence that most people with the ability to perform at a high level who also have ambition, have had those traits all along and so they went to top tier colleges. The folks who had it "click" later in life are much less common, but at least in my field i work with them on a regular basis.

But yeah, its foolish to think that you can just fuck off until your early 20s and then hope it will "click" and everything will fall into place. That is the exception.

[skaredshtles]

<snip>
But yeah, its foolish to think that you can just fuck off until your early 20s and then hope it will "click" and everything will fall into place. That is the exception.

I would humbly suggest that *everyone* just fuck off until their early 30's... 'cause you only live once and the 20's are a good time.

[oldnew_guy]

While the 200k debt story is always a nice one here are some actual stats on the normal student loan borrower:

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/stude...bt-statistics/

TLDR - Average is ~$29k.

Median Yearly Earnings of 25 to 34 Year Old Full-Time Workers with a bachelors: $59,600.

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/stude...ege-graduates/

[Danno]

Here we go with the red hatter "boot strap" crowd denigrating higher education again. Gee, I wonder why the orange shitstain said "I love the poorly educated".

Plenty of people come out of 2 year programs with a ton of student loans, but it's convenient to only bring up the barista with a philosophy degree trope for the mouth breathing base..

I understand the notion that you don't need a 4 year degree to make a good living. Sure, there are guys with HS degrees making $200K, and there are guys with bachelor degrees as baristas, making $30K. But seriously, this idea that 4 year degrees are somehow not worth it needs to die. The evidence is so fucking clear that they help immensely in earning power (let alone learning things like critical thinking, writing, etc). Googling comes up with results like this:
https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/pers...ucation-level/
Education Level Average Income
Less than 9th grade $26,293
9th to 12th grade, no diploma $27,987
High school graduate (includes equivalency) $39,976
Some college, no degree $48,555
Associate's degree $51,161
Bachelor's degree $80,478
Bachelor's degree or more $91,892
Master's degree $98,268
Professional degree $151,348
Doctoral degree $141,178

The SSA agrees: https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/rese...-earnings.html


Apologies for the low res on that image, here's some text: "Men with bachelor's degrees earn approximately $900,000 more in median lifetime earnings than high school graduates. Women with bachelor's degrees earn $630,000 more. Men with graduate degrees earn $1.5 million more in median lifetime earnings than high school graduates. Women with graduate degrees earn $1.1 million more."

Denigrating the value of a college education and the choices people make to get one, with the trope of "they could just fine without it", while ignoring the blatantly obvious statistics that show on average that isn't the case, is just a load of bootstrap bullshit. To be clear, NOBODY IS ARGUING THAT A PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL NEEDS A COLLEGE DEGREE TO MAKE GOOD MONEY. What people are arguing is that on average, people do need a college degree to make good money.

[oldnew_guy]

I would humbly suggest that *everyone* just fuck off until their early 30's... 'cause you only live once and the 20's are a good time.

Worked for me.

[oldnew_guy]

I understand the notion that you don't need a 4 year degree to make a good living. Sure, there are guys with HS degrees making $200K, and there are guys with bachelor degrees as baristas, making $30K. But seriously, this idea that 4 year degrees are somehow not worth it needs to die. The evidence is so fucking clear that they help immensely in earning power (let alone learning things like critical thinking, writing, etc). Googling comes up with results like this:
https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/pers...ucation-level/
Education Level Average Income
Less than 9th grade $26,293
9th to 12th grade, no diploma $27,987
High school graduate (includes equivalency) $39,976
Some college, no degree $48,555
Associate's degree $51,161
Bachelor's degree $80,478
Bachelor's degree or more $91,892
Master's degree $98,268
Professional degree $151,348
Doctoral degree $141,178

The SSA agrees: https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/rese...-earnings.html


Apologies for the low res on that image, here's some text: "Men with bachelor's degrees earn approximately $900,000 more in median lifetime earnings than high school graduates. Women with bachelor's degrees earn $630,000 more. Men with graduate degrees earn $1.5 million more in median lifetime earnings than high school graduates. Women with graduate degrees earn $1.1 million more."

Denigrating the value of a college education and the choices people make to get one, with the trope of "they could just fine without it", while ignoring the blatantly obvious statistics that show on average that isn't the case, is just a load of bootstrap bullshit. To be clear, NOBODY IS ARGUING THAT A PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL NEEDS A COLLEGE DEGREE TO MAKE GOOD MONEY. What people are arguing is that on average, people do need a college degree to make good money.

The word you are looking for is: "anti-intellectualism".

[Mazderati]

It's a continuation of the coastal elite bogeyman.

[gravitylover]

I would humbly suggest that *everyone* just fuck off until their early 30's... 'cause you only live once and the 20's are a good time.

Sounds familiar. I kinda like the 'everyone just fuck off' part.

[californiagrown]

I understand the notion that you don't need a 4 year degree to make a good living. Sure, there are guys with HS degrees making $200K, and there are guys with bachelor degrees as baristas, making $30K. But seriously, this idea that 4 year degrees are somehow not worth it needs to die. The evidence is so fucking clear that they help immensely in earning power (let alone learning things like critical thinking, writing, etc). Googling comes up with results like this:
https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/pers...ucation-level/
Education Level Average Income
Less than 9th grade $26,293
9th to 12th grade, no diploma $27,987
High school graduate (includes equivalency) $39,976
Some college, no degree $48,555
Associate's degree $51,161
Bachelor's degree $80,478
Bachelor's degree or more $91,892
Master's degree $98,268
Professional degree $151,348
Doctoral degree $141,178

The SSA agrees: https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/rese...-earnings.html


Apologies for the low res on that image, here's some text: "Men with bachelor's degrees earn approximately $900,000 more in median lifetime earnings than high school graduates. Women with bachelor's degrees earn $630,000 more. Men with graduate degrees earn $1.5 million more in median lifetime earnings than high school graduates. Women with graduate degrees earn $1.1 million more."

Denigrating the value of a college education and the choices people make to get one, with the trope of "they could just fine without it", while ignoring the blatantly obvious statistics that show on average that isn't the case, is just a load of bootstrap bullshit. To be clear, NOBODY IS ARGUING THAT A PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL NEEDS A COLLEGE DEGREE TO MAKE GOOD MONEY. What people are arguing is that on average, people do need a college degree to make good money.

Do you think that trade/vocational schools for industries typically requiring a 4 yr degree would be better way to educate folks? IME, i use very little of what i learned in my engineering classes to do my engineering job, i learned 99% of it on the job... and that seems to be the case with all our greenhorns. Im not arguing against the benefit of a 4 yr degree, but i am questioning the efficiency of a 4yr degree for teaching you what you need to know to be "successful".

[Danno]

I would humbly suggest that *everyone* just fuck off until their early 30's... 'cause you only live once and the 20's are a good time.

I followed this plan. And it went well, I enjoyed my 20s and figured out a lot of shit, didn't start my adult life until my 30s, really. And I don't regret it. That said, it resulted in me having a kid who won't graduate college until I'm 65. It delayed the hell out of any notion of retirement. So it's not without risks.

[skaredshtles]

I followed this plan. And it went well, I enjoyed my 20s and figured out a lot of shit, didn't start my adult life until my 30s, really. And I don't regret it. That said, it resulted in me having a kid who won't graduate college until I'm 65. It delayed the hell out of any notion of retirement. So it's not without risks.

Oh, absolutely - there's definitely risk.

For most, however, I'd wager it's worth it.

Also: don't have kids.

[Danno]

Do you think that trade/vocational schools for industries typically requiring a 4 yr degree would be better way to educate folks? IME, i use very little of what i learned in my engineering classes to do my engineering job, i learned 99% of it on the job... and that seems to be the case with all our greenhorns. Im not arguing against the benefit of a 4 yr degree, but i am questioning the efficiency of a 4yr degree for teaching you what you need to know to be "successful".

Well, there are two things here: does a 4 year degree greatly increase your chances of success (yes), and can our educational system be revamped to become more efficient and cheaper and still achieve good results (also yes). One example I know well: Most lawyers will tell you that law school is terribly inefficient. "The 1st year they scare you to death, the 2nd year they work you to death, the 3rd year they bore you to death" is a common trope. How is boring someone to death a good way to train lawyers (other than to teach them that the practice of law is boring AF). Law school could easily be 2 years or even 1 year, with a significant practicum component, and the quality of our lawyers would probably not go down. But that isn't the way it is right now.

So arguing that we should change the way we do things is fine, I am in favor of that. Arguing that the 4 yr degree is a waste of money because you can earn a lot with trade school or apprenticeships is BS.

[riser4]

So. Lest my earlier post be misconstrued, I'm going to double down on my Germany post and try to clarify it. I am in no way way arguing that fewer people should have an education. Quite the opposite. I don't think anyone should be allowed to graduate from HS without either a trade (and accompanying certifications) and or enrollment into a further training program. Having both would be ideal. Further training to me means anything from traditional university, hybrid programs, trade schools, apprenticeships, etc. Would some fraction of people who currently go to college be better served by something else? Possibly. And the folks who can't go because of money or the color of their skin should absolutely get the chance to go. I'm all for adding two additional and optional years of HS/tech center to the secondary education system. Will the billionaires have to pay more in taxes to fund it,? Absofuckinglutely. Boo fucking hoo. Military service would absolutely still be part of the regime and qualify as a "further training program" for those that want to go that route.

[californiagrown]

Well, there are two things here: does a 4 year degree greatly increase your chances of success (yes), and can our educational system be revamped to become more efficient and cheaper and still achieve good results (also yes). One example I know well: Most lawyers will tell you that law school is terribly inefficient. "The 1st year they scare you to death, the 2nd year they work you to death, the 3rd year they bore you to death" is a common trope. How is boring someone to death a good way to train lawyers (other than to teach them that the practice of law is boring AF). Law school could easily be 2 years or even 1 year, with a significant practicum component, and the quality of our lawyers would probably not go down. But that isn't the way it is right now.

So arguing that we should change the way we do things is fine, I am in favor of that. Arguing that the 4 yr degree is a waste of money because you can earn a lot with trade school or apprenticeships is BS.

the facts are pretty clear that those with a 4yr degree make much more.

how much of that do you think can be attributed to it just being that a much larger percentage of smarter/more motivated/better connected people go to college, than do not? Kind of like how getting a D1 scholarship in basketball correlates with much higher earnings in pro basketball than folks who play for their local JC.

I guess my question is what do you think is the tangible benefit of a 4yr degree (that cannot be had from a 2yr degree) which causes the higher earnings ? Competing amongst other smart motivated folks? What is actually learned in class? the life lessons on time mgmt and hard mental work?

[dunfree]

the facts are pretty clear that those with a 4yr degree make much more.

how much of that do you think can be attributed to it just being that a much larger percentage of smarter/more motivated/better connected people go to college, than do not? Kind of like how getting a D1 scholarship in basketball correlates with much higher earnings in pro basketball than folks who play for their local JC.

I guess my question is what do you think is the tangible benefit of a 4yr degree (that cannot be had from a 2yr degree) which causes the higher earnings ? Competing amongst other smart motivated folks? What is actually learned in class? the life lessons on time mgmt and hard mental work?

The vast majority of 4-year degrees are from institutions that are not competitive in admissions and have admission thresholds that are not particularly stringent. There are 17k undergrads at Boise State, they take 83% of the people who apply.


the trouble trade schools have is they take far too long to educate wrt to the earning power they produce, and the workforce skill needs are far too diverse. One of the better trade school programs I noticed was a couple month long welding certificate program offered in the evenings. Pick up some skills, get hired by the fabricator next to town.

[Kevo]

In my observation, fucking off in your 20s and getting on a good trajectory starting in your 30s isn't a path that is readily or easily repeatable in today's economy.

As for student loans, the cost of college is now astronomical. We need to figure out how to reduce costs. Government backed non-dischargeable loans have created a monster. In state cost of attendance at most major state schools is now $30k+ per year. It's unconscionable.

[Danno]

the facts are pretty clear that those with a 4yr degree make much more.

how much of that do you think can be attributed to it just being that a much larger percentage of smarter/more motivated/better connected people go to college, than do not? Kind of like how getting a D1 scholarship in basketball correlates with much higher earnings in pro basketball than folks who play for their local JC.

I guess my question is what do you think is the tangible benefit of a 4yr degree (that cannot be had from a 2yr degree) which causes the higher earnings ? Competing amongst other smart motivated folks? What is actually learned in class? the life lessons on time mgmt and hard mental work?

I don't have answers for all those questions, but if you look at the SSA link, they did attempt to address some of it: "After controlling for key socio-demographic variables that influence earnings and the probability of college completion, the differences in lifetime earnings by educational attainment are reduced, but still substantial"

Regardless of whether our educational system is efficient, affordable, etc, it seems indisputable to me that two people, all things being equal, the one going to college will earn more money. More doors will open up for them, graduate degrees become attainable, etc. As for why, I think there are a whole host of reasons. Was my college money well spent? I don't know, lord knows I got drunk a lot and fucked off a lot. But I sure as fuck learned a lot of important skills in critical thinking, writing, organization, etc. Could i have learned those in other ways, could we construct an educational system from scratch that could do that better and cheaper? Sure. But that's like looking at a city and saying "if I started from scratch, could I design this network of roads to be more efficient?" The answer is "yes", and the answer is also "but there's no real way to do that".

[dunfree]

part of the issue here is the US college prestige system hasn’t changed much in over 100 years. The Babcock classification of 1910 tracks to USNWR of recent era
https://kieranhealy.org/blog/archive...-regime-again/

[skaredshtles]

In my observation, fucking off in your 20s and getting on a good trajectory starting in your 30s isn't a path that is readily or easily repeatable in today's economy.

If you're doing college on your own dime, I'd agree... it'll be tough.

But fucking off in your 20's is valuable. Very valuable.

[Vt-Freeheel]

My plumber and his son, 27ish both masters. $110 an hour each......

[californiagrown]

In state cost of attendance at most major state schools is now $30k+ per year. It's unconscionable.

Really? US news says the average annual in-state cost for my alma mater is $15,300 (that's tuition, room+board, books and stuff, minus the average financial aid package). tuition by itself is $12,700. And thats for a large, land grant university with a major athletic program not a rinky dink regional satellite school. It might not have a top tier academic ranking, but the same engineering textbooks are used at Stanford so the education can't be that much different. ironically, the out of pocket cost for stanford likely would have been much cheaper for me had i been able to get in haha.

[oldnew_guy]

Really? US news says the average annual in-state cost for my alma mater is $15,300 (that's tuition, room+board, books and stuff, minus the average financial aid package). tuition by itself is $12,700. And thats for a large, land grant university with a major athletic program not a rinky dink regional satellite school. It might not have a top tier academic ranking, but the same engineering textbooks are used at Stanford so the education can't be that much different. ironically, the out of pocket cost for stanford likely would have been much cheaper for me had i been able to get in haha.

Huh? Room and board is only a <$3k cost on top of tuition?

[Brownski]

But fucking off in your 20's is valuable. Very valuable.

Right. And there are degrees of fucking off too. I didn’t go straight from living in a wall tent in AK straight to the mortgage application. I started the process around age 26 but was probably 31 and a few years into my final career before the fucking off ceased entirely.

[californiagrown]

Huh? Room and board is only a <$3k cost on top of tuition?

Says room+board is about $12k and the average aid package is $13k (which actually jives with my long ago experience of available scholarships and grants available). So realistically, if you dont live in the dorms and eat on a meal plan you should be able to knock the room+board number down by a few thousand. But yeah they say the average out of pocket cost for an instate student was $15,300 in 2022.

The U of U should be $13.5k out of pocket for instate according to them: https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges...y-of-utah-3675