Student Loan Forgiveness

**nickwm21** · 07-01-2023, 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by I Skied Bandini Mountain

As for construction supers or project managers working for the companies and types of projects that pay $200,000/yr salary, not having a 4 year or more degree in a related field would be about as common as being a starting NBA player.

Even the nepobabies in the large, family owned outfits I've worked with have had minimum 4 year degrees and often more and they grew up in the business.

So knowing of one would be about as useful to the topic as knowing of someone who fucked a super model.

I work for an ENR top 10 contractor. We have a handful of VPs that started out in the carpenters union, no college experience making $300k. Maybe 15% of our supers came up in the trades, no college. You need to get to the Sr Super or Exec level to get $200k but plenty of examples in my peer group.

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**nickwm21** · 07-01-2023, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by californiagrown

I think all student loans should have interest rates that directly correlate to inflation so that they are effectively 0% interest loans for the lender. And i think we should expand the loan forgiveness programs for teachers, social workers, govt workers, etc.

This.

+ one step further. Tax payers should fund two additional years on top of high school; either trade school or college pre-req. Whichever the student wants…

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**bodywhomper** · 07-02-2023, 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by californiagrown

Even with bonuses/profit sharing your senior PMs weren't sniffing 200k?

While I agree that none of the folks I mentioned make $97/hr, none of those folks work 40hrs/week either... Probly closer to 50-55, which is a more realistic $70/hr (assuming no bonuses).

I don’t know a lot about bonuses. That is not discussed. I’m aware that some VP’s get bonuses, but it all. It’s tied to work booked and profit made by them. There is no profit sharing except through stock market performance.

The VPs that I work with all work their asses off, like 60+ hrs a week. Many senior PM’s (line 30+ yrs experience) do the same. They get their salary and that is it. We only get paid more than our salaries if we bill clients more than 40hrs/week. Some companies only pay salaries, even if you’ve spent more than 40 hrs all billable to a client, and those extra hours over 40 are considered all profit. This is all for exempt employees. Nonexempt status is different.

Some companies expect more than 40hrs/week for exempt employees. Last I heard, Booz expects 45hrs minimum.

Originally Posted by nickwm21

I work for an ENR top 10 contractor. We have a handful of VPs that started out in the carpenters union, no college experience making $300k. Maybe 15% of our supers came up in the trades, no college. You need to get to the Sr Super or Exec level to get $200k but plenty of examples in my peer group.

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My company is also very high ranked in ENR for design (top 5). One reason for the high ranking for some of the enr categories is because of lower pay, thus they can win the huge MSAs (lower rates), make stronger profit, and make shareholders happy. Union stuff is different. I’ve worked with a surveyor, who is union, and his salary is very good (and well deserved).

**Trackhead** · 07-02-2023, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by californiagrown

Do you think that trade/vocational schools for industries typically requiring a 4 yr degree would be better way to educate folks? IME, i use very little of what i learned in my engineering classes to do my engineering job, i learned 99% of it on the job... and that seems to be the case with all our greenhorns. Im not arguing against the benefit of a 4 yr degree, but i am questioning the efficiency of a 4yr degree for teaching you what you need to know to be "successful".

This^^^

I worked my way up through healthcare, learned 90% of my current knowledge/skill on the job. Not saying four year degrees are useless, mostly that most humans learn more by doing, not by listening to a professor. Sure, you can’t start from scratch for many professions, but most of the progression is made on the job.

Tell me what percentage of “electives” have any bearing on future job skills? It’s a waste of time and money and a distorted system. Maybe all us aging dentists just forgot how dumb most of our higher education classes really were.

**Supermoon** · 07-02-2023, 08:32 AM

College isn’t a job training program.

**SumJongGuy** · 07-02-2023, 08:35 AM

The 4 year degree gives confidence to prospective employers who don't know you personally that you have a work ethic to stick with something you commit to for the long haul. That's 90% of the reason a degree is required. The area of concentration is preferred but rarely mandatory... but it might require a lot of math, so engineering OR economics... a lot of biology, or chemistry.. etc.. Other than that it DOESN'T matter and isn't a substitute for on the job training/experience. They offer more money to someone who finished college.. weeds out flaky people.. And yes, unfortunately that puts poor people at a systemic disadvantage on the corporate ladders.

**::: :::** · 07-02-2023, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Supermoon

College isn’t a job training program.

So much this

[ironically from someone who did a professional degree; but also in a profession that commonly laments that the schools don’t offer direct immediately useful skills to young graduates entering the profession]

**mcski** · 07-02-2023, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

The 4 year degree gives confidence to prospective employers who don't know you personally that you have a work ethic to stick with something you commit to for the long haul. That's 90% of the reason a degree is required. The area of concentration is preferred but rarely mandatory... but it might require a lot of math, so engineering OR economics... a lot of biology, or chemistry.. etc.. Other than that it DOESN'T matter and isn't a substitute for on the job training/experience. They offer more money to someone who finished college.. weeds out flaky people.. And yes, unfortunately that puts poor people at a systemic disadvantage on the corporate ladders.

So much this. When I was about to graduate I happened to chat w a customer at the restaurant I was working in who asked me what my major was. I kind of sheepishly said I was an English major because the usual response was what are you gonna do with that (And I really didn’t know or have any plan at that time). But instead he said, “that’s great. I was an English major too and you can do anything you want with it and I work at HP!” I was kind of surprised. And by complete random chance, after several years of fun, I ended up working in tech too.

Lib Arts ftw. It’s all about solving diverse problems. Companies will teach you your actual job. College should be about learning to think deeply and problem solve at a high level as well as learn about a lot of different stuff getting there imo

I feel fortunate as there is no way I’d have been able to afford the cost of that school now nor be able to get in with even decent grades.

**nickwm21** · 07-02-2023, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Supermoon

College isn’t a job training program.

It’s more of a life training program. And part of life is working to provide for yourself, which in 2023 means a JOB. A college degree that supports being effective at a job is certainly not a waste of time.

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**Kevo** · 07-02-2023, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Trackhead

This^^^

I worked my way up through healthcare, learned 90% of my current knowledge/skill on the job. Not saying four year degrees are useless, mostly that most humans learn more by doing, not by listening to a professor. Sure, you can’t start from scratch for many professions, but most of the progression is made on the job.

Tell me what percentage of “electives” have any bearing on future job skills? It’s a waste of time and money and a distorted system. Maybe all us aging dentists just forgot how dumb most of our higher education classes really were.

I was a marketing major. I spent only 3 years working in marketing before moving on to operations, then technical sales/ product strategy and later enterprise level business development.

The most useful class I took for my career was an upper division entrepreneurial finance capstone elective that taught me different ways to value companies.That class taught me a language that has allowed me be a part of several mergers and acquisitions. It gave me a seat at the table.

The other best classes were electives that I took because I was interested in them that taught me how to learn and think. I took several physical anthropology class that blew my mind along with an astronomy class, a couple philosophy classes and four different history classes.

Other than the classic liberal arts "how to learn and how to think logically", the finance and accounting classes that I took are the only real knowledge set that I currently use in my day to day job.

Everything else I learned a long the way.

I do think the college experience was very valuable to me, but I'm not sure how I'd weigh it at current tuition prices.

**Buster Highmen** · 07-02-2023, 11:15 AM

The student loan program is a bankers dream scam, the need for which has been the result of diminishing public funding at mostly the state level brought about by right wing politics.

The fucked up thing is that the previous federal grants were supplanted by federally subsidized loans. Then FAFSA came along and switched the subsidy to private entities with viscious legal bindings. The loan model gave rise to more scams, but this time on the part of the colleges and universities vying for those dollars where college administrations ballooned with alumni and sports financial armatures.

The college loan models, much like low interest housing loans, spawned skyrocketing costs for an end product.

With regard to post secondary education, the federal and state grant model seems to have worked better, at least tuition inflation was much less prior to the loan based funding. Maybe shifting back to a grant system might help rein in the costs. Maybe that ship has sailed.

I've virtually never used my college or grad school education to make money, except maybe to have the pedigree from highly regarded institutions. I taught myself everything for my job, but there was something in having studied abstract goop that helped my confidence in learning new shit. Nonetheless, I highly value my libuhral ahtts experience and the freedom to spend time just learning for learnings sake. I'd recommend it for anyone.

**dunfree** · 07-02-2023, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by nickwm21

It’s more of a life training program. And part of life is working to provide for yourself, which in 2023 means a JOB. A college degree that supports being effective at a job is certainly not a waste of time.

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And every year there’s a crop of NCGs that have newer voced credentials. If you are getting a STEM degree decent liberal arts electives might be far more useful years down the road than the required core.

**SumJongGuy** · 07-02-2023, 12:53 PM

Most of the people I know who stump for college being worthless are people who either tried and failed or never tried due to many of the obstacles we are trying to remove for everyone. You did OK without college? Good for you.. But, unless you did that AND went to college you never will quite get the real value and what other people are looking for when placing that requirement as eligibility for the position they are hiring for.

Sounds really deuchy to say that but what I really want is for everyone to have the same opportunity I had and my kids have to spend 4 years STICKING to something then deciding what they want to do from there as a career. And ya, killer spring break experiences should also be a part of that along with summer internship type jobs. If you still want to be a plumber you might end up as a VP/director/board member at Roto Rooter in 10 years..

**altacoup** · 07-02-2023, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by californiagrown

Do you think that trade/vocational schools for industries typically requiring a 4 yr degree would be better way to educate folks? IME, i use very little of what i learned in my engineering classes to do my engineering job, i learned 99% of it on the job... and that seems to be the case with all our greenhorns. Im not arguing against the benefit of a 4 yr degree, but i am questioning the efficiency of a 4yr degree for teaching you what you need to know to be "successful".

All engineers should be required to do 2 years of field work. The amount of things I’ve seen in the field that I’m sure look great on a computer but lack practicality is mind numbing.

**bodywhomper** · 07-02-2023, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by dunfree

And every year there’s a crop of NCGs that have newer voced credentials. If you are getting a STEM degree decent liberal arts electives might be far more useful years down the road than the required core.

I did this. Biochem degree with a minor in env studies. All my env studies classes were lib arts oriented. I also took a lib arts frame of mind to my stem classes. It got me closer and deeper connections to my professors, stem and non-stem and a deeper meaning to my stem courses and deep meaning. It’s been almost 30 years for me, but i have distinct memories of meaningful conversations with multiple professors, some of which took place in the midst of a lecture in large lecture halls and some during office hours.

Specific to the subject, my biggest regret was not having time for an unpaid internship at a really cool marine science lab (I turned down the offer

), take my coursework, and have my part time paid job.

**Mustonen** · 07-02-2023, 01:32 PM

Bankers get little, if anything, out of the student loan paradigm. It’s a loss leader at best.

I’m constantly a little amazed at just how much I got out of almost every single class. I bounced around majors (English, graphic design, photography, before finishing with business) and outside of some of the history and related classes, have found things that have helped me directly in my career that I learned in class. My path and where I ended up isn’t the norm, but I wouldn’t be where I am without that education and those experiences.

Anti-intellectualism and the culture surrounding education is deeply harmful. Education ain’t all bad, though.

**Trackhead** · 07-02-2023, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Supermoon

College isn’t a job training program.

For a lot of healthcare careers, it is. But most of the learning happens in clinical or first few years on the job, not as much in the classroom.

I don’t think pointing out inefficiency in higher education is anti-intellectualism. I can’t think of much benefit I obtained from any electives in my undergrad/Masters program. Thankfully a lot of healthcare jobs offer generous loan payoff programs.

Would be nice to see four year degrees have more specificity and perhaps internships in more degrees instead of electives and fluff classes.

**Buster Highmen** · 07-02-2023, 01:59 PM

More on profits and history of student loans. Sallie Mae/Navient are the profiteers, leveraging fed loan guarantees.
https://revealnews.org/article/who-g...t-debt-crisis/ .

I guess I didn't really know what career I was going to have and honestly, there were very few classes in computer science in the mid seventies. Technology changes, people change and it might be reasonable to have a wider variety of education rather than specificity in order to be able to react to changing economics and personal goals.

My med tech training was purely vocational, though.

**Mazderati** · 07-02-2023, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Trackhead

I can’t think of much benefit I obtained from any electives in my undergrad/Masters program.

Would be nice to see four year degrees have more specificity and perhaps internships in more degrees instead of electives and fluff classes.

You just had someone outline a robust example of the opposite. It may sound crazy, but it's possible your siloed worldview is not representative.

**Trackhead** · 07-02-2023, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Mazderati

You just had someone outline a robust example of the opposite. It may sound crazy, but it's possible your siloed worldview is not representative.

As is yours.

**Mazderati** · 07-02-2023, 02:07 PM

I haven't offered any, much less made any sweeping generalizations.

**Mustonen** · 07-02-2023, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

More on profits and history of student loans. Sallie Mae/Navient are the profiteers, leveraging fed loan guarantees.
https://revealnews.org/article/who-g...t-debt-crisis/ .

The private student loan market isn’t and hasn’t been very big for a long long time.

**Buster Highmen** · 07-02-2023, 02:14 PM

fwiw, I don't think Trackheads view is wrong.
There's too much variability in people and the econoscape.

More of a trade school approach is right for some people who at a certain point in their lives are focused on a career.

I'm not so sure that's the case for most 18-22 year olds.

**dunfree** · 07-02-2023, 02:15 PM

Nothing like dickheads in regulated industries like healthcare with a bloated educational structure that protects their bloated wages raging against the machine that gets them their paycheck. Fuck off travelling nurse, sell your geriatric ignoramus that doesn’t understand history bullshit to sone other rubes you stupid fuck that doesn’t get what made the roaring 20s roar was consumer debt. Maybe take some history

**dunfree** · 07-02-2023, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

fwiw, I don't think Trackheads view is wrong.
There's too much variability in people and the econoscape.

More of a trade school approach is right for some people who at a certain point in their lives are focused on a career.

I'm not so sure that's the case for most 18-22 year olds.

again, the problem with trade schools is trades are far too variable in their demands. Trade schools make $20 patient care techs, and $15 carpenters (not many of those these days)