If only there was something we could do...

[californiagrown]

The knock down power on a .223/5.56 relies on the bullet tumbling when it hits, they don't go straight through a human like the .308/7.62 can
From personal experience with a 20 ga, anything smaller than a BB load loses knock down power over 20-30 feet(ish)

You have rooms in your house bigger than 30' across? I legit don't know if I could find a 30' uninterrupted line in my 2200sf home. I mean really though, it seems to me that the range for home defense is pretty much always <30' and the need for something that can spit out many, many rounds with knockdown power +50' away is only useful in a fantasy where multiple armed people are attacking your property at once, or if you are going on the offensive after an assailant.

If an armed intruder breaks into your home, they are looking use their weapon to incapacitate an unarmed victim and to steal things and get away. They are not looking to overwhelm an armed homeowner with superior firepower in a firefight (we dont live in a warzone). At the first sign of an armed homeowner 99.9999% of intruders are going to do what they can to GTFO of there ASAP... they arent going to try and engage in an offensive minded firefight, and they sure arent going to analyze the type of shotgun and shot being shot at them to calculate if they should stick around.


It just seems to me that so many of the home defense gun rights folks use fantastical scenarios to qualify their weapon, and ignore the likely reality.

[SumJongGuy]

The knock down power on a .223/5.56 relies on the bullet tumbling when it hits, they don't go straight through a human like the .308/7.62 can
From personal experience with a 20 ga, anything smaller than a BB load loses knock down power over 20-30 feet(ish)

That doesn't gel with what the ED docs, EMTs and coroners say. They way the fatal damage isn't the entry wound but the gigantic exit wounds from AR .223s. Perhaps it's not traveling point forward after hitting something.. But, a stray from a .223 will definitely travel farther, a lot farther, than buck shot does.

[SumJongGuy]

We're only really hearing about the high profile murder suicides like happened to Jimmy Johnson's inlaws. But, that's probably the most common multiple homicide scenario that succeeds. Your gun's more likely to kill you and your own family than it is anybody else..

[riser4]

We're only really hearing about the high profile murder suicides like happened to Jimmy Johnson's inlaws. But, that's probably the most common multiple homicide scenario that succeeds. Your gun's more likely to kill you and your own family than it is anybody else..

Fucking killed the grandson. That's heart wrenching.

[Dantheman]

That doesn't gel with what the ED docs, EMTs and coroners say. They way the fatal damage isn't the entry wound but the gigantic exit wounds from AR .223s. Perhaps it's not traveling point forward after hitting something..

There's innumerable videos on Youtube showing exactly what happens when a .223 round hits simulated flesh. It's not pretty.

[leroy jenkins]

You have rooms in your house bigger than 30' across? I legit don't know if I could find a 30' uninterrupted line in my 2200sf home. I mean really though, it seems to me that the range for home defense is pretty much always <30' and the need for something that can spit out many, many rounds with knockdown power +50' away is only useful in a fantasy where multiple armed people are attacking your property at once, or if you are going on the offensive after an assailant.

If an armed intruder breaks into your home, they are looking use their weapon to incapacitate an unarmed victim and to steal things and get away. They are not looking to overwhelm an armed homeowner with superior firepower in a firefight (we dont live in a warzone). At the first sign of an armed homeowner 99.9999% of intruders are going to do what they can to GTFO of there ASAP... they arent going to try and engage in an offensive minded firefight, and they sure arent going to analyze the type of shotgun and shot being shot at them to calculate if they should stick around.


It just seems to me that so many of the home defense gun rights folks use fantastical scenarios to qualify their weapon, and ignore the likely reality.

You just described the concept of overmatch. Not sure why you wouldn't want that when defending yourself, although overpenetration and neighbors is a concern.

[leroy jenkins]

Driving off road in a heavily modified rock crawler can be a lot of fun.

Driving around town peacocking in one with flags hanging off it while you go get your groceries? Seems like different motives at play.

Not sure if this analogy holds up though - just spitballing

(This isn’t a dig at you)

Throw in driving around town in a huge lifted monster truck that sucks for rock crawling as some sort of political demonstration and your metaphor has some weight.

[riser4]

At a minimum, a special license should be required for military ammo. Civilians don't need to produce wound cavities like the above.

[Buster Highmen]

You just described the concept of overmatch. Not sure why you wouldn't want that when defending yourself, although overpenetration and neighbors is a concern.

Owning Guns Puts People in Your Home at Greater Risk of Being Killed, New Study Shows

A new study from my research team, recently published in the Annals of Internal Medicine, shows no such benefits. We found the opposite: people living in homes with guns face substantially higher risks of being fatally assaulted.

Again...

[ex-powderbroker]

what kind of round and firearm was constitutionally necessary for this guy to execute 3/4 children (one got away thankfully)?

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/...20all%20killed.

[zion zig zag]

At a minimum, a special license should be required for military ammo. Civilians don't need to produce wound cavities like the above.

You should write legislation. You understand the details very well.

[TBS]

In a tangent, saw a guy today pedaling his adult tricycle down the bike path in our little village - strapped with a semi-auto of some sort.

[riser4]

You should write legislation. You understand the details very well.

Teh funneh.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

At a minimum, a special license should be required for military ammo. Civilians don't need to produce wound cavities like the above.

Neither of those cartridges were military ammunition.


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[schuss]

Not sure if it's been discussed, but cops in schools as a solution is now a dead-end because they have no obligation to act:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/29/u...n-verdict.html

[californiagrown]

Not sure if it's been discussed, but cops in schools as a solution is now a dead-end because they have no obligation to act:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/29/u...n-verdict.html

Correct me if i am wrong, but i thought it was well established that cops in general have no duty to put themselves in harms way to protect others? So that ruling would be consistent?

[nickwm21]

My home defense gameplan:

Hit the fucker with the bear spray. Grab the kid and wife and GTFO. Let them take the TV. Call the police.

That way if the intruder turns out to be the daughters boyfriend trying to sneak in - it’s a fun story not a life destroying nightmare.


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[MagnificentUnicorn]

So much for protect and serve. Should their slogan be abuse and subjugate?


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[schuss]

Correct me if i am wrong, but i thought it was well established that cops in general have no duty to put themselves in harms way to protect others? So that ruling would be consistent?

It is, but there was a question on school resource officers I believe if they had a duty to the schoolkids based on the narrowness of their employment vs. general police.

[californiagrown]

It is, but there was a question on school resource officers I believe if they had a duty to the schoolkids based on the narrowness of their employment vs. general police.

Ahhh that makes sense. Kinda like how cops have a much greater duty towards people in custody than they do to the general public, the thought was that a school resource officer has the students under their quazi-custody. I guess not though.

This will just bring out the argument to station armed vets at schools to protect students if the police arent willing/able... because vets arent known for mental health issues or anything.

[schuss]

Ahhh that makes sense. Kinda like how cops have a much greater duty towards people in custody than they do to the general public, the thought was that a school resource officer has the students under their quazi-custody. I guess not though.

This will just bring out the argument to station armed vets at schools to protect students if the police arent willing/able... because vets arent known for mental health issues or anything.

Well, it just underscores you're not going to solve this with an "enforcement" mechanism unless it's privately hired, as there's literally no way to hold them accountable for performance or non-performance. As public schools generally won't be able to justify or afford private security contracts, it's now just off the table as a viable solution.

[JimmyCarter]

So much for protect and serve. Should their slogan be abuse and subjugate?


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Protect and serve still applies, it’s just a shift in the beneficiary

[SumJongGuy]

Correct me if i am wrong, but i thought it was well established that cops in general have no duty to put themselves in harms way to protect others? So that ruling would be consistent?

They actually do. It's an exchange for qualified immunity should they fuck up while trying to fulfill that oblication.

I do believe that unless they are reasonably certain of the issue at hand they can call for back up and wait BEFORE engaging though. Florida chickenshit got off because he convinced the jury he didn't have enough info to go running in there to engage.. and backup wasn't there yet..

[k2skier112]

That doesn't gel with what the ED docs, EMTs and coroners say. They way the fatal damage isn't the entry wound but the gigantic exit wounds from AR .223s. Perhaps it's not traveling point forward after hitting something.. But, a stray from a .223 will definitely travel farther, a lot farther, than buck shot does.

from a tumbling bullet

[k2skier112]

You have rooms in your house bigger than 30' across? I legit don't know if I could find a 30' uninterrupted line in my 2200sf home. I mean really though, it seems to me that the range for home defense is pretty much always <30' and the need for something that can spit out many, many rounds with knockdown power +50' away is only useful in a fantasy where multiple armed people are attacking your property at once, or if you are going on the offensive after an assailant.

If an armed intruder breaks into your home, they are looking use their weapon to incapacitate an unarmed victim and to steal things and get away. They are not looking to overwhelm an armed homeowner with superior firepower in a firefight (we dont live in a warzone). At the first sign of an armed homeowner 99.9999% of intruders are going to do what they can to GTFO of there ASAP... they arent going to try and engage in an offensive minded firefight, and they sure arent going to analyze the type of shotgun and shot being shot at them to calculate if they should stick around.


It just seems to me that so many of the home defense gun rights folks use fantastical scenarios to qualify their weapon, and ignore the likely reality.

Just sharing my experiences blowing shit up as a teenager
I have a single shot 20ga, with only #7
Never had any concern with a B&E at my place. A baseball bat by the front door maybe...
The Mayonnaise Militia thinks they're gonna be all COD on an intruder, not concerned about misses that hit other houses
The gun nutz are the ones that are concerned about what shot's in their sawed off 12ga, not me

Measured our 1450 sg ft ranch. 32' across dining to living room. 28' from entry way to end of hall. 20-30' is probably average