Student Loan Forgiveness

[Buster Highmen]

Nothing is a better Defense project than having an educated electorate. Take the money from the Defense budget and offer it to colleges who reduce tuition.

[Buster Highmen]

A trillion dollar subsidy given to colleges is diluting the argument? Especially when it's the the main underlying reason for ever increasing college costs?

It's not being given to colleges. It's being given to people. Again, get your reasoning straightened out.

[::: :::]

I do think the cost of education is a reason for the rise of fascism. Just look at the demographics of the left: "educated" is the main property.

An interesting marker, for sure
But when the fascism is built on grievance and fear, isn’t it somewhat beside the point given that the targets of fear aren’t necessarily actual problems, just the squirrel to be focused on?

[Buster Highmen]

An interesting marker, for sure

Every study of this kind indicates that education is the key to opportunity.

But when the fascism is built on grievance and fear, isn’t it somewhat beside the point given that the targets of fear aren’t necessarily actual problems, just the squirrel to be focused on?

? I don't understand.
I think the cause of the grievance is the lack of opportunity, which again, it tightly linked to educational opportunity.

[MultiVerse]

It's not being given to colleges. It's being given to people. Again, get your reasoning straightened out.

The debt is 'given' to kids. The kids give colleges the money. I'm straight.

[::: :::]

The grievances are empty, or partially empty, of substance.
The point is to create an other to rail against. The substance of the fear isn’t the point.

[Buster Highmen]

The debt is 'given' to kids. The kids give colleges the money.

Your tense is incorrect. The correct tense is "kids gave".
Look, what you're trying to say is that debt forgiveness ONLY encourages tuition inflation. Which is just not correct.

While college debt forgiveness doesn't address the fundamental problem of tuition inflation and may encourage the problem to continue, it does alleviate economic stress on those holding the debt. The goal is alleviating that stress on the individual.

In order to really fix the problem of tuition inflation, something else has to be done. So rather than going on and on misconstruing the goal of the program, why not try offering up some real solutions.

[Buster Highmen]

The grievances are empty, or partially empty, of substance.
The point is to create an other to rail against. The substance of the fear isn’t the point.

The grievances are empty? So there really is equal opportunity? Whew.

[MultiVerse]

Your tense is incorrect. The correct tense if "kids gave".
Look, what you're trying to say is that debt forgiveness ONLY encourages tuition inflation. Which is just not correct.

While college debt forgiveness doesn't address the fundamental problem of tuition inflation and may encourage the problem to continue, it does alleviate economic stress on those holding the debt. The goal is alleviating that stress on the individual.

In order to really fix the problem of tuition inflation, something else has to be done. So rather than going on and on misconstruing the goal of the program, why not try offering up some real solutions.

- Re gave vs given, the fact is one directly feeds into the other
- This program is not just about one time loan forgiveness
- I've repeatedly offered up real solutions throughout this thread
- Even in the absence of solutions, we should not do things that make the problem worse

[Buster Highmen]

- Re gave vs given, the fact is one directly feeds into the other.
- This program is not just about one time loan forgiveness

Assuming this one time executive order sets a precedent.

- I've repeatedly offered up real solutions throughout this thread

Focus on that.

- Even in the absence of solutions, we should not do things that make the problem worse

It only makes the problem worse in the absence of a solution to tuition inflation if it sets a precedent. Glossing over the alleviation of economic stress for millions is less than you.

[MultiVerse]

I've suggested directing loan forgiveness to the people who are severely burdened by their debt, the folks without degrees. Those are the people under enormous stress.

[Supermoon]

I've suggested directing loan forgiveness to the people who are severely burdened by their debt, the folks without degrees. Those are the people under enormous stress.

You’re making a big assumption with no data to back that up. I know plenty of people with degrees who struggle with their loan payments because wages are stagnant and rent/healthcare/gas/food have gotten way more expensive. Or they have medical debt. Or they had to leave the workforce to care for a loved one.

On the flip side there are plenty of people who dropped out who don’t “need” it.

I personally think everyone should have gotten it, but the income cap seems to do what you’re asking for.

[::: :::]

The grievances are empty? So there really is equal opportunity? Whew.

we are talking past each other
i can't give more time to it this morning, so i'll drop it

[MultiVerse]

You’re making a big assumption with no data to back that up. I know plenty of people with degrees who struggle with their loan payments because wages are stagnant and rent/healthcare/gas/food have gotten way more expensive. Or they have medical debt. Or they had to leave the workforce to care for a loved one.

On the flip side there are plenty of people who dropped out who don’t “need” it.

I personally think everyone should have gotten it, but the income cap seems to do what you’re asking for.

Loans are a problem, especially when people are starting out. That's why affordability matters most. Going back to the earlier discussion about federal income tax, there seems to be a misconception that high wage earners are carrying the load for everyone else. To the extent that's true, a lot of it has to do with the shape of the lifetime earnings curve. Young and old people don't pay a lot of federal income tax compared with people in their prime earning years. There's a temporal component to all of this. A person making $50k after dropping out of University of Phoenix has a lot lower expected lifetime wealth than a person who graduated from Harvard and is only making $50k in a public sector job.

[Bunion 2020]

Debate over President Biden’s plan to forgive student loan debt has focused on the merits of the policy. Who will benefit? How will it affect the economy? Is it fair? There has been far too little discussion of the means by which Biden will implement the plan: an invocation of emergency powers.


There needs to be more. However worthy the goal, Biden’s move is a dubious use of emergency authority — one that could invite more troubling misuses in the future.

Emergency powers serve a limited role in our constitutional system. Their purpose is to give presidents a short-term boost in power to handle a sudden, unforeseen crisis (the definition of “emergency”) that is moving too quickly or unpredictably for Congress to address. They often involve extraordinary delegations of authority, such as the power to assert control over domestic transportation. Congress provides these sweeping powers on the assumption that presidents will exercise them rarely and briefly.

Emergency powers are not meant to address long-standing problems, however dire. Nor are they meant to provide long-term solutions. And using them to get around Congress, when Congress has considered a course of action and rejected it, is a clear misuse of emergency powers.

Biden’s action disregards these principles. His plan relies on the 2003 Heroes Act, which allows the education secretary to modify the rules that apply to student loans during war or national emergencies if necessary to mitigate the effects of the crisis. Both President Donald Trump and Biden invoked this law to offset the economic impact of covid-19 by deferring payments and waiving interest.

While the pandemic was a sudden, unforeseen development, student loan debt has been a serious problem for decades. One could argue that covid made this problem significantly and abruptly worse, creating a true emergency. But covid itself has been with us for 2½ years; indeed, it could well be our “new normal.” And unlike the previous deferrals and waivers, debt forgiveness is a permanent act, not a stopgap measure.

As for Congress, members have had ample time to confront the pandemic’s fallout, including its interaction with other sources of economic hardship. Since March 2020, several lawmakers have introduced bills that would forgive $10,000 or more in student debt. Although one passed the House, none has made it through the Senate. In other words, Congress has chosen not to pursue this policy.

Against this backdrop, Biden’s action looks less like a temporary exercise of power to address a sudden, fast-moving crisis and more like a work-around to implement a long-term policy that lacks the necessary support in Congress.

To be sure, Biden is not the first president to use emergency powers in this way. Most notably (and flagrantly), Trump declared a national emergency to secure funding for a wall along the southern border after Congress refused his requests. Furthermore, Presidents George W. Bush, Barack Obama and Trump invoked the Heroes Act multiple times to alter the terms of student loan repayments, in apparent reliance on the emergency declaration issued after 9/11. Although Congress registered its approval, these actions took place years after the terrorist attacks and thus set a precedent for using the Heroes Act in non-crisis situations.

.

You’re making a big assumption with no data to back that up. I know plenty of people with degrees who struggle with their loan payments because wages are stagnant and rent/healthcare/gas/food have gotten way more expensive. Or they have medical debt. Or they had to leave the workforce to care for a loved one.

On the flip side there are plenty of people who dropped out who don’t “need” it.

I personally think everyone should have gotten it, but the income cap seems to do what you’re asking for.

WTF then why not establish a relief fund for everyone? Having trouble making ends meet? Can't afford that new thing? Just have the rest of us bail you out regardless of the why.

[rod9301]

Smart people study this stuff. Smart people with advanced degrees from places like Harvard. Nearly everybody here has it backwards. This will increase college costs, not lower them. This isn't about spending less on education. It's about not subsidizing the wrong thing. Whether or not this is good politics, this is bad policy.

To give just one of many examples of bloat — spending on student services at colleges and universities grew four times faster than spending on instruction and research.

The entire reason we're in this mess with student loans to begin with is the gusher of student loan money essentially removes any incentive for colleges to do anything about costs. As a result the gains from attending college are increasingly going to people who come from affluent families.

It's hurting the American dream of upward mobility and entrenching class distinctions in American.

True

Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk

[Supermoon]

.



WTF then why not establish a relief fund for everyone? Having trouble making ends meet? Can't afford that new thing? Just have the rest of us bail you out regardless of the why.

Sure. Let’s do that. We sort of do, it’s called welfare, but we definitely need to expand our safety nets.

A lot of these arguments against loan relief get suspiciously close to arguing for a universal basic income, which I would totally support.

[Mustonen]

I've suggested directing loan forgiveness to the people who are severely burdened by their debt, the folks without degrees. Those are the people under enormous stress.

You’re a luminary. If only those in charge had access to you.

{/snark}

There are plenty with degrees under enormous stress too. I’m not sure I understand what you’re arguing anymore. You have more or less acknowledged that this is not a perfect solution, and that this accomplishes in a ramshackle way stated policy goals, and you have been unable to propose an alternative action that would have actually been actionable.

Instead, you keep returning to the same handful of bitches. This latest is…fine…. But I don’t understand why it’s a solution that you think has obvious merit. You’re assuming that we don’t want to provide relief to those with degrees too, that the goal is to target those most in need vs target the most people who have a need, or that your proposal is in any way superior to accomplish any objective.

But keep on keeping on, I guess. Fight that fight.

[MultiVerse]

You’re assuming that we don’t want to provide relief to those with degrees too

On average people with degrees will make at least a million dollars more over the course of their lifetimes than people without degrees so the question is why do they need relief (people like me) if the return on investment from college is so high?

All due respect, nobody here has provided a compelling argument for why debt relief is needed if the returns to education are so good?

unable to propose an alternative action that would have actually been actionable.

I have in fact proposed an alternative action that is actionable.

[Cisco Kid]

On average people with degrees will make at least a million dollars more over the course of their lifetimes than people without degrees so the question is why do they need relief (people like me) if the return on investment from college is so high?

All due respect, nobody here has provided a compelling argument for why debt relief is needed if the returns to education are so good?

Really dumb question IMO but I'll bite. Because it's better for a society to NOT have a class that owe their money and future to financial Overlords. Better they should spend it on their kids and to make the consumer economy stronger.

Capitalists Pigs are sharks. Amoral. Tell me they aren't.

[MultiVerse]

So you're saying college should be free. That's something else entirely. In that sense we're sorta in agreement because I think college should be much more affordable.

[Mustonen]

I have in fact proposed an alternative action that is actionable.

But not one that is clearly better, especially from a macroeconomic perspective.

[MultiVerse]

When compared with the plan as proposed, doing nothing is actually better from a macroeconomic perspective.

[J. Barron DeJong]

A lot of these arguments against loan relief get suspiciously close to arguing for a universal basic income, which I would totally support.

[californiagrown]

On average people with degrees will make at least a million dollars more over the course of their lifetimes than people without degrees so the question is why do they need relief (people like me) if the return on investment from college is so high?

Could that stat be skewed by older generations where that financial gap existed in large part because a college degree was more rare and so there were plenty of well paying jobs available to them, while the newer generations wont have such a large gap because degrees are so ubiquitous that the number of well paying jobs cant keep up?