espresso making mags?

[zion zig zag]

I really feel for Zion Zig Zag right now. I totally remember the process myself. People say its all about the grinder, and that as long as you’ve got a good grinder, the machine doesn’t really matter as much. And don’t get a $400 new machine because you can get sweet deals on used professional machines.
So you figure the Baratza Encore and Capresso Infinity are your starting grinder budget. I mean, loads of dudes are saying their’s work just fine! But just before pulling the trigger you catch wind of the opinion that those machines are definitely not capable of dialing in an espresso shot. All of a sudden your budget doubles ....... for the grinder. And that’s for an entry level grinder. A grand would be more realistic.
So you focus on the machine again. $350 seemed reasonable at first. Apparently that price is as old as the $800 mountain bike. And a “Good Deal” on a pro machine is like a good deal on a manual diesel Audi wagon. Now you’re back to $500 for a budget new machine. As you pull out your wallet, you hear someone say PID. From the corner, someone else says Double Boiler. You’re looking at $600-1500 for a setup that’s getting responses like, “undrinkable”, “won’t work”, “wasting your time”. Oh, did you say cappuccino? Sorry pal, we were talking espresso.
Bring a wife into this, and I’m guessing she wants something clean and shiny with a warranty that makes espresso/cappuccino fun and easy and consistent. Well, that would be my wife, if she drank coffee. And the clean & shiny bit still stands if it’s gonna be in her kitchen!
Mine’s been collecting dust for 6 months, but I get why Nespresso is 10x more common within my social circles.

In reality though, it’s a super fun hobby. Up there with photography and bikes in terms of obsessing and no limit spending.


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Nailed it.

[tgapp]

I really feel for Zion Zig Zag right now. I totally remember the process myself. People say its all about the grinder, and that as long as you’ve got a good grinder, the machine doesn’t really matter as much. And don’t get a $400 new machine because you can get sweet deals on used professional machines.
So you figure the Baratza Encore and Capresso Infinity are your starting grinder budget. I mean, loads of dudes are saying their’s work just fine! But just before pulling the trigger you catch wind of the opinion that those machines are definitely not capable of dialing in an espresso shot. All of a sudden your budget doubles ....... for the grinder. And that’s for an entry level grinder. A grand would be more realistic.
So you focus on the machine again. $350 seemed reasonable at first. Apparently that price is as old as the $800 mountain bike. And a “Good Deal” on a pro machine is like a good deal on a manual diesel Audi wagon. Now you’re back to $500 for a budget new machine. As you pull out your wallet, you hear someone say PID. From the corner, someone else says Double Boiler. You’re looking at $600-1500 for a setup that’s getting responses like, “undrinkable”, “won’t work”, “wasting your time”. Oh, did you say cappuccino? Sorry pal, we were talking espresso.
Bring a wife into this, and I’m guessing she wants something clean and shiny with a warranty that makes espresso/cappuccino fun and easy and consistent. Well, that would be my wife, if she drank coffee. And the clean & shiny bit still stands if it’s gonna be in her kitchen!
Mine’s been collecting dust for 6 months, but I get why Nespresso is 10x more common within my social circles.

In reality though, it’s a super fun hobby. Up there with photography and bikes in terms of obsessing and no limit spending.


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i agree, this is spot on

i do think though that there are a ton of great values to be had. a basic single boiler machine + a great grinder will likely end up costing you around $800, and even at that level, you are on par or better than 90% of coffee shops in your area (for espresso, anyway - not milk drinks). if you think you might pursue this as a hobby, might as well get a machine that'll last you for a while.

i started with a rancillio silvia, but i knew within a few weeks that i wanted something that steamed milk better. i got great espresso out of it, but the wife wanted milk drinks. so, after a few months, i pulled the trigger on a used heat exchanger that i ended up having for 5 years or so. i bought that machine at $800 and sold it for $500 (gave the kid a killer deal, just like the person who sold it to me). finally, this year, i bit the bullet on a used lelit bianca that i spent $2k on - and it's worth every penny IMO. i'll keep this machine for 10+ years, and i could never want anything else - this is the terminal upgrade, though i might get a god tier grinder at some point.

are there plenty of people happy with their $300 Capressos? yes, of course. there are also skiers who own a single pair of skis that they bought in the mid 2000s and love them. if you're going to get into this as a hobby, i think a sette (for ease of use) + a decent machine is a great place to start - you can go for years on that setup without ever feeling the need to upgrade.

the downside, of course, is that coffee outside your home will universally taste like shit.

[Dantheman]

Nailed it.

I like to read this thread, then look at the $100 worth of coffee-making shit I own ($40 hand grinder, Aeropress, French press, and a pourover cone), and say to myself "Yep, all set."

[zion zig zag]

Tgapp - does/did your Lelit have the 57mm baskets, and if so was that a problem? I think that is my big hold up on the Lelit, is the trouble of finding parts and accessories based on the odd portafilter size.
Wife has a belief that the Brevilles are not made as well, whether that's real or perceived I have no idea. That kind of has me back at the Gaggia Classic Pro, cheapest of the three, good reviews, and people seem to be able to pull good shots despite the lack of PID. And while she will drink milk drinks occasionally, art isn't important.

[zion zig zag]

I like to read this thread, then look at the $100 worth of coffee-making shit I own ($40 hand grinder, Aeropress, French press, and a pourover cone), and say to myself "Yep, all set."

I agree. I would happily put this money in the bank and think about the extra month I gained in retirement. But she's going to keep bringing this up.

[tgapp]

I like to read this thread, then look at the $100 worth of coffee-making shit I own ($40 hand grinder, Aeropress, French press, and a pourover cone), and say to myself "Yep, all set."

i mean look, if you're doing brewed coffee, you can do it cheap as shit and super well. i use a (cracked) plastic v60 every fucking day. it cost $8. i rinse out my v60 paper filters so i can use them 2-3 times and save money on them/create less waste. i also used that same hand grinder i bet (one of the hario skerton knockoffs) for years. it's awesome, no complaints. espresso is just a different game. cheapest you can do it at the same level of execution as your pourover would be a Flair + a much better hand grinder, which would put you in the $400 range.

Tgapp - does/did your Lelit have the 57mm baskets, and if so was that a problem? I think that is my big hold up on the Lelit, is the trouble of finding parts and accessories based on the odd portafilter size.
Wife has a belief that the Brevilles are not made as well, whether that's real or perceived I have no idea. That kind of has me back at the Gaggia Classic Pro, cheapest of the three, good reviews, and people seem to be able to pull good shots despite the lack of PID. And while she will drink milk drinks occasionally, art isn't important.

shit, i didn't realize that the anna has a 57mm basket. yeah, that kinda sucks. my bianca has a 58mm basket, which is standard on most machines. that is kind of lame.

[retirwntm]

Here’s my latte art. It’s pretty fancy. I use a milk frother we had for our kids to warm the milk. Then I just plop a little foam on top.




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[climberevan]

Jm2e totally nailed it.

I tapped out after deciding that I didn't want to spend $5k on espresso gear. Working in cafes for so many years have me the skills and knowledge to do it right, but also the knowledge that I needed the right equipment to really be happy.

I really enjoy my pour over, and occasionally get a fantastic espresso when I travel to a place with a good cafe.

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[tgapp]

Jm2e totally nailed it.

I tapped out after deciding that I didn't want to spend $5k on espresso gear. Working in cafes for so many years have me the skills and knowledge to do it right, but also the knowledge that I needed the right equipment to really be happy.

I really enjoy my pour over, and occasionally get a fantastic espresso when I travel to a place with a good cafe.

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heh, if you have one of those 20kg probats kicking around i would buy that off you in a heartbeat. that should buy you a few slayers/synessos. one for your downstairs and one for your kitchen?

worth noting that both me and wifey work from home (pre-pandemic as well), and wifey (being sober) doesn't have many outlets for vices. so, coffee is a great shared hobby, and we don't get out to cafes, ever. plus, honestly, there isn't any cafe in salt lake that can even come close to the quality of espresso we make at home. i know that sounds conceited but it's very true at this point.

[Dantheman]

espresso is just a different game.

Oh I get that. For me, while I like coffee, the price of admission to the home espresso game just isn't worth it. This is grinder I have: https://rhinocoffeegear.com/rhino-co...d-grinder.html Probably has the same burr set as the Hario but the ergonomics seem better. Also works great attached to a cordless drill.

[tgapp]

Oh I get that. For me, while I like coffee, the price of admission to the home espresso game just isn't worth it. This is grinder I have: https://rhinocoffeegear.com/rhino-co...d-grinder.html Probably has the same burr set as the Hario but the ergonomics seem better. Also works great attached to a cordless drill.

good, because the ergonomics on the hario fucking suck. i have relatively long fingers and holding on to the hario while grinding for aeropress is a true grip strength workout. that is the same burrset though, yep. that thing is great. best value in coffee.

[zion zig zag]

Equipment purchased. I went ahead and picked up cleaning supplies as well. Which brings me to the next set of inane questions....
Do you guys use an inline water softener attached to the intake tube? Or just a Brita pitcher? I've seen suggestions for both. How often do you descale and clean the group head?

[retirwntm]

We get bottled water cuz our water sucks. I find we don’t have to descale too often. I still do it every couple of months and take out the group head and clean all that gear. Run one or two times with the backflush disc.


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[jm2e]

Equipment purchased.

Anxiously awaiting TR



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[tgapp]

Equipment purchased. I went ahead and picked up cleaning supplies as well. Which brings me to the next set of inane questions....
Do you guys use an inline water softener attached to the intake tube? Or just a Brita pitcher? I've seen suggestions for both. How often do you descale and clean the group head?

depends on how hard your water is. get a cheap tds meter (or i can loan one to you if you want, but they're like $8), and then plan accordingly. short answer on scale is descale when you need it, which is usually every 3-6 months, and then backflush after every session. get a thing of espresso detergent (like joeglow) and backflush with that every week.

i'm also anxious for the TR

[rod9301]

Tgapp - does/did your Lelit have the 57mm baskets, and if so was that a problem? I think that is my big hold up on the Lelit, is the trouble of finding parts and accessories based on the odd portafilter size.
Wife has a belief that the Brevilles are not made as well, whether that's real or perceived I have no idea. That kind of has me back at the Gaggia Classic Pro, cheapest of the three, good reviews, and people seem to be able to pull good shots despite the lack of PID. And while she will drink milk drinks occasionally, art isn't important.

I have a 57 mm lelit and a lucca m58. No difference in espresso.

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[Doremite]

Equipment purchased. I went ahead and picked up cleaning supplies as well. Which brings me to the next set of inane questions....
Do you guys use an inline water softener attached to the intake tube? Or just a Brita pitcher? I've seen suggestions for both. How often do you descale and clean the group head?

Yeah man. Welcome to the worm hole. Soon you’ll need a set up in WY too. Way too bulky to travel. =)

[comish]

Equipment purchased. I went ahead and picked up cleaning supplies as well. Which brings me to the next set of inane questions....
Do you guys use an inline water softener attached to the intake tube? Or just a Brita pitcher? I've seen suggestions for both. How often do you descale and clean the group head?

So, whatdja get?

[abraham]

Yeah man. Welcome to the worm hole. Soon you’ll need a set up in WY too. Way too bulky to travel. =)

Pelican case with quick connect fittings for water and power.


I'm in the drip coffee camp, espresso is just too equipment intensive for me to justify for now.

[zion zig zag]

Yeah man. Welcome to the worm hole. Soon you’ll need a set up in WY too. Way too bulky to travel. =)

Bwah. Aeropress for the traveling set up!

[zion zig zag]

So, whatdja get?

I went with the grinder that tgapp suggested, the Baratza Sette 30. And the Gaggia Classic Pro for espresso machine.

[Benny Profane]

Anybody use a good online seller for porcelain cups, both espresso and cappacinno? A little larger for lattes would be nice, too.

[tgapp]

Anybody use a good online seller for porcelain cups, both espresso and cappacinno? A little larger for lattes would be nice, too.

Espresso Parts is my go-to for good quality, cheap porcelain cups that can be bought in smaller quantities. They're well made and look good. I have the skull and portafilter cappuccino cups from them and like them a lot:

https://www.espressoparts.com/cafe-s...ain-cappuccino

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[Benny Profane]

Cool, thanks.

[frorider]

Zion, I was going to chime in here to say that if you recognize the limitations the Gaggia Classic can make great espresso based drinks. Single boiler, I don’t bother using steam wand but quality milk and a plunger like the Bodum Latteo + a microwave (use 2 cycles of heat) the results can be outstanding once you get the variables dialed (I’ve found a combo of very fine grind and grams that the machine can handle with a slowish shot pull).. Guess my point is that my friends with $3k machines don’t generally make a better espresso...but they can crank them out. My baseline in quality taste is high given my time in Seattle, France, Italy etc going back a while. Interestingly one of the best home lattes I had in my life was at the home of a E Sierra dirtbag with a VERY basic setup but he had his shit dialed. It’s hard to explain but you start to know the device. If you pound nails all day on a house you learn just where to grab the hammer and how to swing it efficiently.

Water hardness isn’t reduced by a Brita type filter. I’ve noticed however that true Ion Exchange devices have come down significantly from $500....I may install one under the sink. Currently I just descale the Classic every 2-3 months.

If anyone here has experience with the sub $300 ion exchange systems, interested in your thoughts....