espresso making mags?

[retirwntm]

Frorider - do you find you have to grind the beans more fine than suggested and really overfill and tamp down super hard to get a decent shot from the gaggia? That has been my experience otherwise it flows out way too fast and comes out weak with very little crema. I do need to clean the shower head group more often since grinds end up back in there.


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[retirwntm]

Also, I use a frother we got and while it’s not really steam wand quality, it’s ok for my needs. I run it the same time as I am pulling the shot.


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[tgapp]

Zion, I was going to chime in here to say that if you recognize the limitations the Gaggia Classic can make great espresso based drinks. Single boiler, I don’t bother using steam wand but quality milk and a plunger like the Bodum Latteo + a microwave (use 2 cycles of heat) the results can be outstanding once you get the variables dialed (I’ve found a combo of very fine grind and grams that the machine can handle with a slowish shot pull).. Guess my point is that my friends with $3k machines don’t generally make a better espresso...but they can crank them out. My baseline in quality taste is high given my time in Seattle, France, Italy etc going back a while. Interestingly one of the best home lattes I had in my life was at the home of a E Sierra dirtbag with a VERY basic setup but he had his shit dialed. It’s hard to explain but you start to know the device. If you pound nails all day on a house you learn just where to grab the hammer and how to swing it efficiently.

Water hardness isn’t reduced by a Brita type filter. I’ve noticed however that true Ion Exchange devices have come down significantly from $500....I may install one under the sink. Currently I just descale the Classic every 2-3 months.

If anyone here has experience with the sub $300 ion exchange systems, interested in your thoughts....

as someone who owns a $3k machine... i agree with this 100%. all of this is correct. my only caveat is that for the espresso nerds, flow control/shot profiling DOES make a difference, but it's about closing the gap from 85% to 95% of perfect.

brita filters do shit for water hardness, as do other carbon-based filtration systems. the in-line ion exchanger is a place to start, but if you're going to really care about water, you need to either strip it down entirely (using an RO system, which is what we have) or get one of the fancy ion exchangers. i do RO + potassium bicarbonate until our water is in the ~120ppm tds range (recommended by La Marzocco), which is non-scale forming but still provided the requisite hardness for good extraction.

That has been my experience otherwise it flows out way too fast and comes out weak with very little crema. I do need to clean the shower head group more often since grinds end up back in there.

this is a textbook channeling problem. plenty of ways of fixing it, but overdosing your baskets is the most blunt - all you're doing is increasing the thickness of the puck and thereby limiting the likelihood of water forcing it's way through. the problem with doing this though, as you have noticed, is that with limited headroom in the brew chamber the coffee cannot properly bloom and expand. you can tell if you don't have enough headroom by grinding, tamping, and then placing a quarter on your tamped puck, then locking the basket into place. then take the basket out and see if the puck is cracked - if it is, you don't have enough headroom.

other fixes for channeling are using the dissection needle, shaking up your grounds in a tumbler to break clumps, distributing better, etc

[old goat]

Anybody use a good online seller for porcelain cups, both espresso and cappacinno? A little larger for lattes would be nice, too.

My espresso cup, a Gaudi souvenir, but you probably have to go to Barcelona to get it.

this is a textbook channeling problem. plenty of ways of fixing it, but overdosing your baskets is the most blunt - all you're doing is increasing the thickness of the puck and thereby limiting the likelihood of water forcing it's way through. the problem with doing this though, as you have noticed, is that with limited headroom in the brew chamber the coffee cannot properly bloom and expand. you can tell if you don't have enough headroom by grinding, tamping, and then placing a quarter on your tamped puck, then locking the basket into place. then take the basket out and see if the puck is cracked - if it is, you don't have enough headroom.

Breville machines come with a nifty little tool to set the proper headroom. I assume other machines do too, or they can be bought a la carte. Whether Breville's tool --the Razor--works with other machines I have no idea. They make 54mm and 58mm versions and one that is adjustable for both sizes. But I wouldn't use a $9 tool with a$3K machine. It just wouldn't be right.

[tgapp]

My espresso cup, a Gaudi souvenir, but you probably have to go to Barcelona to get it.




Breville machines come with a nifty little tool to set the proper headroom. I assume other machines do too, or they can be bought a la carte. Whether Breville's tool --the Razor--works with other machines I have no idea. They make 54mm and 58mm versions and one that is adjustable for both sizes. But I wouldn't use a $9 tool with a$3K machine. It just wouldn't be right.

beautiful cups!! my god.

yeah i far prefer using pocket change for my $3k machine. it's handy, and i don't have any other use for it these days

surprisingly, i've never seen a tool like that - my bianca definitely didn't come with one. but, as a general guideline, underdosing is better than overdosing baskets. it's a little harder to distribute, but you end up with much better espresso, speaking broadly.

[zion zig zag]

Zion, I was going to chime in here to say that if you recognize the limitations the Gaggia Classic can make great espresso based drinks. Single boiler, I don’t bother using steam wand but quality milk and a plunger like the Bodum Latteo + a microwave (use 2 cycles of heat) the results can be outstanding once you get the variables dialed (I’ve found a combo of very fine grind and grams that the machine can handle with a slowish shot pull).. Guess my point is that my friends with $3k machines don’t generally make a better espresso...but they can crank them out. My baseline in quality taste is high given my time in Seattle, France, Italy etc going back a while. Interestingly one of the best home lattes I had in my life was at the home of a E Sierra dirtbag with a VERY basic setup but he had his shit dialed. It’s hard to explain but you start to know the device. If you pound nails all day on a house you learn just where to grab the hammer and how to swing it efficiently.

Water hardness isn’t reduced by a Brita type filter. I’ve noticed however that true Ion Exchange devices have come down significantly from $500....I may install one under the sink. Currently I just descale the Classic every 2-3 months.

If anyone here has experience with the sub $300 ion exchange systems, interested in your thoughts....

The Bodum Lateo just looks like a french press to me?

[zion zig zag]

First trip report: I'm already frustrated

Is it a fools errand to try and make a good shot with pre ground? Long story short, the Gaggia shipped in one day, but the grinder isn't coming till next week. So I picked up a small tin of Lavazza ground espresso because I'm impatient and wanted to try it out. I measure out 18 grams of ground, tamp it, and it brews 5 ounces in 25 seconds. Try again with a harder tamp and get 3 ounces in 20 seconds, both shots seem too bitter. I can brew for a much shorter period to get the 18 grams in, 36 grams out, but I though the magic number was 25-30 seconds?

Also the puck seems to be slightly wet and wont come out with robust banging against something. I had to dig it out with a spoon.

[Doremite]

First trip report: I'm already frustrated

Is it a fools errand to try and make a good shot with pre ground? Long story short, the Gaggia shipped in one day, but the grinder isn't coming till next week. So I picked up a small tin of Lavazza ground espresso because I'm impatient and wanted to try it out. I measure out 18 grams of ground, tamp it, and it brews 5 ounces in 25 seconds. Try again with a harder tamp and get 3 ounces in 20 seconds, both shots seem too bitter. I can brew for a much shorter period to get the 18 grams in, 36 grams out, but I though the magic number was 25-30 seconds?

Also the puck seems to be slightly wet and wont come out with robust banging against something. I had to dig it out with a spoon.

Grind is everything. That coffee is ground way too course for espresso based on your output. 18g likely too much for the Gaggia classic (guess) and shoot for more like 30g out in 30-35 seconds. That will be impossible with the grind you have on hand. A finer grind will slow the flow rate. You can probably run a much finer grind at 16g and start hitting your target extraction.

[zion zig zag]

Grind is everything. That coffee is ground way too course for espresso based on your output. 18g likely too much for the Gaggia classic (guess) and shoot for more like 30g out in 30-35 seconds. That will be impossible with the grind you have on hand. A finer grind will slow the flow rate. You can probably run a much finer grind at 16g and start hitting your target extraction.

Gracias amigo. I guess I’ll wait for the grinder to get here before I stress out about it. I’ve moved onto a coffee beer that criscam gave me:

[rod9301]

First trip report: I'm already frustrated

Is it a fools errand to try and make a good shot with pre ground? Long story short, the Gaggia shipped in one day, but the grinder isn't coming till next week. So I picked up a small tin of Lavazza ground espresso because I'm impatient and wanted to try it out. I measure out 18 grams of ground, tamp it, and it brews 5 ounces in 25 seconds. Try again with a harder tamp and get 3 ounces in 20 seconds, both shots seem too bitter. I can brew for a much shorter period to get the 18 grams in, 36 grams out, but I though the magic number was 25-30 seconds?

Also the puck seems to be slightly wet and wont come out with robust banging against something. I had to dig it out with a spoon.

Try a1:1 ratio, 18g in, 18h out, 25-35 second s

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[Doremite]

Gracias amigo. I guess I’ll wait for the grinder to get here before I stress out about it. I’ve moved onto a coffee beer that criscam gave me:

Nice! Enjoy. Haven’t had that beer in ages. Hope all is well!

You can play w the grind settings which will take time to dial in but you’ll quickly realize how much affect it has on the output. Grind your desired dose - say 18g - tamp and drop an nickel on top. Insert the portafilter into the group head and then back it out. If the nickel depresses into the grounds you have too many gs in the basket. Establish clean head clearance to establish proper dosing for your set up then work your grind to a 1.5-1.75 output ratio in 30-35 seconds. So say 16g in ~25 out. Don’t stress on perfection. It is being within a range that works for flavor. Not overdosing baskets is something tgapp taught me and is gold to lock in on dosage and then play w grind and extraction time from there.

Whole bean purchases from here on out! 12% stouts in 16oz cans too.

[frorider]

Grind is everything. That coffee is ground way too course for espresso based on your output. 18g likely too much for the Gaggia classic (guess) and shoot for more like 30g out in 30-35 seconds. That will be impossible with the grind you have on hand. A finer grind will slow the flow rate. You can probably run a much finer grind at 16g and start hitting your target extraction.

Sounds about right. I used a trial and error process ten yrs ago when I bought the Gaggia, but about 35 secs is where I’m at.

It’s fascinating how playing around with the small variables has a cumulative effect. ZZZ, you’ll figure it all out. I remember being buzzed out of my fucking mind during the Playing Around With the Gaggia period...pulling 12 shots and drinking them will do that. Lol.

[jm2e]

As someone who’s 6 months ahead of ZZZ, I’ll weigh in with my $0.02. Your mileage will certainly vary since you’ve got a better machine, better grinder and you’re likely a good deal smarter.
-Don’t get any high dollar bean right now. You’re gonna burn through coffee. Get a lot and don’t worry about freshness. You need to feel like there’s tons of bean just begging to be ground, rather than feeling like you just burned through that bag and only got 2 good shots out of it.
-Honestly, I’m still trying to get a consistent 1:2 to 1:3 shot. It’s allowed me to not get hung up on that one number and not get too bummed when I pour a 50g shot out of 17g when it feels like everything was identical to the 36g shot I pulled a hour earlier. I feel like these guys pulling consistent 1:1.5 shots have a feel for the subtlety of grind/dose/tamp that escapes me right now.
-If I tried to pull a ristretto (1:1) right now, I’d bet 70% chance I’d bind up the machine and get 5-8g of dribble over 1+ minutes.
-For the first couple weeks (?) I really just wanted to get a good puck. After a wile, I didn’t care if it gave me Earl Gray Tea or Motor Oil, if I got a nice, solid, dry puck that tapped out of the portafilter, I felt like a boss. (I also learned that double walled baskets equal soupy pucks).
-Fight the urge to try different coffee. Pick one that you like okay and stick with it. It’s maddening how each new bean requires learning how to grind/tamp/dose all over again.
It’s supposed to be fun.
-something happens as bean sits out at room temperature for a week or two. You have to adjust your shit. I haven’t figured it out yet. Assuming it’s the beans drying but it’s still outside of my ability to anticipate and react to.


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[tgapp]

jm2e's and doremite's advice is super fucking sound, all of it. 100%, all very well put. frorider too!

does your machine have a pressure gauge? the reason I ask is because most preground coffee is ground for pressurized portafilters (and it's stale) and a real machine is just gonna blow right past it. sucks for now, but in the long run you'll benefit from it. anyway, if you do have a pressure gauge it'll likely gonna show that your machine is never getting up to pressure.

in addition to the advice about timing, one of the other diagnostic tools is to watch the bottom of the portafilter basket as you pull a shot - something I still do every day. here's how it works: you turn your machine on and it'll take N seconds (6-15 or so, also depends if you have preinfusion capabilities). during that time you'll hear the pump kick on and the sound changes when it reaches pressure (helpful if you don't have a pressure gauge). watch the bottom of the basket now; it should saturate uniformly across the bottom at about the same speed (looks like it's sweating chocolate), then it'll drip randomly, and then the drips will coalesce into a stream. once you're at the stream stage, it should look like a tiger's strips with light and dark bands spaced evenly around the cone.

eventually, the dark stripes will grow lighter, until the entire cone is cappuccino colored. if you look in the demitasse, there will be a markedly lighter splotch of crema where the stream enters. this is called blonding, and it happens when the espresso is over extracted - why shots end up tasting bitter. the trick is to kill the shot as soon as it starts to blond - and if you're blonding before 25 seconds or so (some would say 20 seconds to but imo nothing good ever comes out before 27 seconds), something is not right. grind finer, dose higher, tamp harder, etc.

shot weights and ratios are great as a baseline, but they also tell you nothing about the espresso other than bare functional metrics. arguably the world's greatest professional coffee expert (scott rao) drinks his espresso 3:1 and says, hands down, it's the best in the world, and i totally believe him. so, my advice is to try and shoot for a particular metric but then pay attention to how the shot progresses too.

one more thing about cheap beans: I agree with this sentiment but if you are using really cheap beans they won't pull well - they're too stale to cause the necessary swelling that creates a proper puck (and not a soup mess). so you need cheap, properly aged beans (5-10 days off roast), because otherwise, you won't be able to learn much about shot mechanics.

i'm happy to supply you with cheap espresso (i've got buckets of cheap green that would be great for this) if you want some, it'll just take 5-10 days to age before it's good to go. and once you've got that figured out, i'll share some dope beans with you too

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[Todd Zander]

Dont be afraid to temp surf with it either, i assume the bi-mettalic upper and lower temp limit switches = a 20+ degree f swing.

Dont forget to purge the air and fill the boiler( just run the pump for 5-10 seconds) after steaming

Edit: DO have fun and mix with good milk

[Doremite]

jm2e's and doremite's advice is super fucking sound, all of it. 100%, all very well put. frorider too!

does your machine have a pressure gauge? the reason I ask is because most preground coffee is ground for pressurized portafilters (and it's stale) and a real machine is just gonna blow right past it. sucks for now, but in the long run you'll benefit from it. anyway, if you do have a pressure gauge it'll likely gonna show that your machine is never getting up to pressure.

in addition to the advice about timing, one of the other diagnostic tools is to watch the bottom of the portafilter basket as you pull a shot - something I still do every day. here's how it works: you turn your machine on and it'll take N seconds (6-15 or so, also depends if you have preinfusion capabilities). during that time you'll hear the pump kick on and the sound changes when it reaches pressure (helpful if you don't have a pressure gauge). watch the bottom of the basket now; it should saturate uniformly across the bottom at about the same speed (looks like it's sweating chocolate), then it'll drip randomly, and then the drips will coalesce into a stream. once you're at the stream stage, it should look like a tiger's strips with light and dark bands spaced evenly around the cone.

eventually, the dark stripes will grow lighter, until the entire cone is cappuccino colored. if you look in the demitasse, there will be a markedly lighter splotch of crema where the stream enters. this is called blonding, and it happens when the espresso is over extracted - why shots end up tasting bitter. the trick is to kill the shot as soon as it starts to blond - and if you're blonding before 25 seconds or so (some would say 20 seconds to but imo nothing good ever comes out before 27 seconds), something is not right. grind finer, dose higher, tamp harder, etc.

shot weights and ratios are great as a baseline, but they also tell you nothing about the espresso other than bare functional metrics. arguably the world's greatest professional coffee expert (scott rao) drinks his espresso 3:1 and says, hands down, it's the best in the world, and i totally believe him. so, my advice is to try and shoot for a particular metric but then pay attention to how the shot progresses too.

one more thing about cheap beans: I agree with this sentiment but if you are using really cheap beans they won't pull well - they're too stale to cause the necessary swelling that creates a proper puck (and not a soup mess). so you need cheap, properly aged beans (5-10 days off roast), because otherwise, you won't be able to learn much about shot mechanics.

i'm happy to supply you with cheap espresso (i've got buckets of cheap green that would be great for this) if you want some, it'll just take 5-10 days to age before it's good to go. and once you've got that figured out, i'll share some dope beans with you too

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T, is this an examples of blonding?

[zion zig zag]

tgapp, don't you have to have a bottomless portafilter to watch the shot pull like that? Thanks for the offer on beans! I do have a bag from Costco that I need to use up, that should work to learn, right?

And I was using the doublewall pressurized basket with the pre-ground coffee. I actually tried both baskets and got a little better results on timing with the standard basket but almost no crema. Anyway, I'm going to try and resist trying anymore until the grinder shows up.

[Doremite]

tgapp, don't you have to have a bottomless portafilter to watch the shot pull like that? Thanks for the offer on beans! I do have a bag from Costco that I need to use up, that should work to learn, right?

And I was using the doublewall pressurized basket with the pre-ground coffee. I actually tried both baskets and got a little better results on timing with the standard basket but almost no crema. Anyway, I'm going to try and resist trying anymore until the grinder shows up.

Just a FYI you are going to have to change your grind every time you change/buy beans so you can play with the costco beans as a learning tool but be ready to keep tweaking. Even as your new coffee beans off gas and develops. Do not buy anything roasted >5 days ago. Find a local roaster that knows what’s up or check tgapp for mail order suggestions.

Bottomless is a cool learning tool and just fun to watch but not a must have. You may be talking like a $70 upgrade.

[54-46]

Latte art in Tokyo

First - the basic


Then

Totoro

[tgapp]

T, is this an examples of blonding?

yep that is a perfect example of blonding, thanks for posting up. i tried to make one today but then realized I'm out of espresso right now.

ZZZ - a bottomless definitely helps a ton, and you can usually find them used for cheaper than $75. or if you're handy you can just take an angle grinder to a spouted portafilter. you can still use the same principles with a spouted portafilter, it's just more difficult. If there is a ton of turbulence coming out of the spout then that means that water is moving faster thru one part of the basket (channeling) than the other.

and yeah, you can use those costco beans for basic practice but something fresher will help you a ton more. this isn't a flavor/snobbery thing, it's a mechanical thing. old coffee just doesn't really work well for espresso.

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[PowderAlltheTime]

I've been meaning to chime in on this thread for awhile, but tgapp has been echoing everything i would add. ZZZ, I hope you realize that you're at the beginning step of a addiction. Once you start chasing the perfect home espresso one thing leads to another to another to another--along the way you spend a little more money. But you end up with damn good espresso. My own journey started with a Breveille, to a Lelit, to a Cuadra, to a Profitec. The pattern being POS machine, to a single boiler, to heat exchange, to a double boiler. Along the way with three different grinders, lots'o portafilters, dispensing tools, thermometers, etc. I am happy today with my setup, but I am looking at changing my grinder (thanks tgapp for showing me the Niche Zero).

The only other thing i would add is what tgapp said. I cheap way to get better dispensing and stop blonding is with the dissection need. Google it and you will see how to do it. Also, most people start tamping with way too much pressure. Try a shot with no (or very little pressure) and see what happens.

I still have the Lalit. I took into to work to use a community machine. DON'T EVER DO THAT. For that matter, limit who touches your machine at your house--if you want it to keep working. The Lalit needs some work to get it running. If there is someone who is interested in fixing it, send me a PM. I'll give it away--free.

Now I'm chasing roasting (thanks again tgapp). That's a brand new world of possibilities. But it does make your espresso much, much better.

[retirwntm]

PM’ed you. Because I am a glutton for punishment you can’t say no to an expensive habit.


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[donutlynx]

I've got a Gaggia Classic that needs a little work, as well. Free to anyone who is interested.

[old goat]

tgapp, don't you have to have a bottomless portafilter to watch the shot pull like that? Thanks for the offer on beans! I do have a bag from Costco that I need to use up, that should work to learn, right?

And I was using the doublewall pressurized basket with the pre-ground coffee. I actually tried both baskets and got a little better results on timing with the standard basket but almost no crema. Anyway, I'm going to try and resist trying anymore until the grinder shows up.

I've had better result with preground coffee using a double wall filter, but I make Americanos with it, not espresso. go heavier on the sugar. up the temp 2 degrees. People give me preground coffee as a gift, usually good coffee, not espresso roast. Sometimes I do French press with it but it's ground too fine for that.

[Benny Profane]

So, I fell into the rabbit hole of how to home roast on youtube this afternoon (godawful weather outside), and I came away thinking, I could do that affordably. Doesnt look that hard. As an amatuer cook and foodie of sorts, I've learned fresh is best. It's why a simple pasta meal in Italy is so much better, although even they and the French are falling prey to modern industrial prepackaged food, too, but hardly as bad as America. So I'm thinking a counter roaster is a better new toy than a grinder, because I already have a decent burr grinder that just doesnt have a single shot feature. If you've ever had fresh made pasta done well, you know what I mean.

So, my question is, if you self roast, and dont shoot me over this: Is it ok to freeze these beans you just roasted? Does that extend flavor life? Does it really degrade them?