espresso making mags?

[Doremite]

mostly it's a question of manufacturing tolerances, materials, and burr size

basic grinders (under $200) will have a ton of variance in the burr set, and the bearings used will be of lower quality, leading to wobble and play in the drive shaft, and they will use smaller, less precise burrs (usually 45mm or smaller) this creates an uneven particulate size, which means that, on a microscopic level, some of the coffee will be over extracted while some of it will be under extracted. they also tend to have retention, which is when static electricity makes the coffee stick to the sides of whatever exit chute, and if you're not careful, you're getting old coffee. this is a problem for espresso, as it won't extract properly.

mid-tier grinders ($200-2000, i know that's a huge range) have bigger burrs, better tolerances, and better motors, too. many of these are cafe grinders that get repurposed for home use, but more and more, the prosumer market is evolving to market directly to consumers who want god-tier coffee at home. these machines usually have burrs in the 40-60mm range, and you'll start to see some of the "name brand" burr sets (Etzinger, SSP, Mazzer) appear in this product class.

the highest quality grinders ($3k+) will have uniform grind that is created by very high precision burr sets (the best burrs come from speciality, coffee burr specific manufacturing companies in Switzerland and Korea and can cost upwards of $500 for the burrs alone), and they will also be titanium-coated so that they don't dull as quickly. higher quality grinders almost always have bigger burrs (between 70 and 90mm - called 'titan class'); bigger burrs grind faster, heat up less, and have better particle distribution.

there's also a question around flat burr grinders vs conicals too - most people who brew only drip coffee prefer flat burrs (the distribution of particle size on a flat burr is unimodal), while people drinking espresso tend to like conicals because they create bimodal distribution (big particles AND little particles). i use a conical for everything (Niche Zero - cannot recommend it enough), but i'd like to get a flat burr for brewed coffee - likely an Orphan Espresso Apex at some point.

All super informative and interesting. So are conical burrs actually grinding particles of different sizing per grind or meaning conical offers greater range of particle sizes but the particles in each grind are (or at least should be) uniform?

[climberevan]

also if you want to see an insane example of no-limit spending for coffee, check out this grinder:

https://www.wholelattelove.com/produ...coffee-grinder

jesus

It initially seems loony to spend $5500 on a single dose grinder, but apparently beans are selling at auction for $2500/lb now (according to my friend who owns a roasting company and who taps out at about $25). Billionaires like coffee too.

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[tgapp]

All super informative and interesting. So are conical burrs actually grinding particles of different sizing per grind or meaning conical offers greater range of particle sizes but the particles in each grind are (or at least should be) uniform?

it's more of an actual bimodal distribution - so not a range of sizes but bigger pieces and smaller pieces (fines). the fines help create pressure in the puck and keep it from channeling is my understanding (the smaller particles travel thru the puck), and they're also responsible for the leopard spots in a well executed shot

of course, some people really like flat burr espresso, so there's also that i guess

Satisfying early results with the Flair. I'm still really inconsistent, but working on it

dude that looks great!

I like the one review. "Good".

fucking classic dentist shit

[PowderAlltheTime]

TGAPP, will you please educate me about flow control devices. Should I buy one, how they work and how you use them.

thanks

[tgapp]

TGAPP, will you please educate me about flow control devices. Should I buy one, how they work and how you use them.

thanks

yeah they're the fucking tits, amazing that you can now add that on to a basic e61. it used to be that you had to spend $8k to get flow control but now it's literally a $150 part that will work with most e61s.

flow control allows you to pressure profile (changing the amount of pressure in the brew chamber in real time), which allows you to create a different profile for different roasts - it also allows you to mimic the natural flow of a lever machine, where the pressure tapers down after peaking at 9bars. this is especially advantageous when working with lighter espressos which need longer preinfusion and slower pulls. you can also do these really badass fake aeropress shots where you grind medium fine (WAY coarser than espresso) and then pull 5:1 shots at 2-4bars of pressure. they sound weird but they're fucking amazing. also the irony of using a $3k machine to make aeropress coffee isn't lost on me...

most of my shots look like this - 20 seconds of preinfusion (under 1 bar of pressure, no espresso coming out - the valve is almost closed), 15 seconds ramp to pressure (valve open), and then between 15 seconds and 25 seconds of draw down (closing valve gradually), for a total shot time of ~50 to 75 seconds. you just can't do that with a normal machine, nor can you rescue a channeling or gushing shot by slowing it way down.

flow controls work BEST on single or double boiler machines, but they can also work on heat exchangers - the problem with heat exchangers and flow control is the flow control restricts the flow of hot water through the heat exchanger, so the trade off is that you lose some temperature control.

[bennymac]

I like the one review. "Good".

Yeah I laughed. Is that some Russian oligarch on a super yacht? Yah...$5,000 grinder iz “good”

Regardless that is a cool looking machine.

[bennymac]

We used the Breville grinder for a few years but then it started not grinding right. My wife determined that the plastic “wheel” had worn down and that you could order a replacement one (3D printed part) which is the white thing in the bag.

But keep in mind this means that as the plastic wears down it’s essentially going into your ground coffee. We were considering upgrading anyway so went with the Silenzio you see in the background.

[PowderAlltheTime]

Interesting. I guess I'll be buying one. Where's the best place to buy Whole Latte Love?

[tgapp]

Interesting. I guess I'll be buying one. Where's the best place to buy Whole Latte Love?

yeah, looks like it's $225 now - there is this one on amazon for $160 but i'm not sure it's worth the $65 difference:

https://www.amazon.com/Coffee-Sensor.../dp/B0834DV619

make sure your machine is compatible with it first. i had a vibiemme domobar super that has a different e61 mushroom (the mushroom valve attached via two smaller hex screws rather than the standard giant nut you see on most e61 mushrooms). most common e61 machines (ecm, profitec, lelit) are compatible but it's worth double checking first. flow control is pretty much the #1 reason i upgraded to a bianca, otherwise i would have kept my vibiemme forever.

[rod9301]

I store the beans in a vacuum container, and they smell pretty fresh after a week or so if opening, closing and extracting the air.
Without this, they smell bad after a day or so

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[XXX-er]

I read something that recommends you just leave beans in the bag you bought them in with the one way valve, the beans will keep off gassing which will protect them

[tgapp]

I read something that recommends you just leave beans in the bag you bought them in with the one way valve, the beans will keep off gassing which will protect them

yeah that's fine. not an issue at all. and you're right, the co2 that is released after roasting keeps the coffee from oxidizing.

honestly, coffee isn't this super fragile thing, it's not like it goes bad if you leave it out for a minute. this surprises most people, but fresh roasted coffee is almost always left uncovered in the air for the first 12-72 hours, and it doesn't go bad. commercial roasters do this too in giant bins before bagging, because if you bag right away the co2 degassing is so active that you'll have to offgas your bags a ton and it's a pain in the ass.

[Doremite]

yeah they're the fucking tits, amazing that you can now add that on to a basic e61. it used to be that you had to spend $8k to get flow control but now it's literally a $150 part that will work with most e61s.

flow control allows you to pressure profile (changing the amount of pressure in the brew chamber in real time), which allows you to create a different profile for different roasts - it also allows you to mimic the natural flow of a lever machine, where the pressure tapers down after peaking at 9bars. this is especially advantageous when working with lighter espressos which need longer preinfusion and slower pulls. you can also do these really badass fake aeropress shots where you grind medium fine (WAY coarser than espresso) and then pull 5:1 shots at 2-4bars of pressure. they sound weird but they're fucking amazing. also the irony of using a $3k machine to make aeropress coffee isn't lost on me...

most of my shots look like this - 20 seconds of preinfusion (under 1 bar of pressure, no espresso coming out - the valve is almost closed), 15 seconds ramp to pressure (valve open), and then between 15 seconds and 25 seconds of draw down (closing valve gradually), for a total shot time of ~50 to 75 seconds. you just can't do that with a normal machine, nor can you rescue a channeling or gushing shot by slowing it way down.

flow controls work BEST on single or double boiler machines, but they can also work on heat exchangers - the problem with heat exchangers and flow control is the flow control restricts the flow of hot water through the heat exchanger, so the trade off is that you lose some temperature control.

Now I need to figure out fucking flow control. Will this ever end??? Have a heat exchanger tho. The knobs are way too cool to upgrade now. Maybe my next frontier.

[zion zig zag]

So the grinder came and I'm about 10 shots deep trying to dial. I keep hearing 16-18 grams in and 32-36 grams out in 25-35 seconds. 16-18 grams is a double shot right? Are double shots 2 ounces? 2 ounces weighs more that 36 grams so I'm confused.

I can't believe how small changes on the grind dial effect output, from nothing but pump bogging down to flowing too fast.

[Doremite]

“Double shots” involve 14-18g in at a 1.5-2.0 ratio out. Level the dosage say at just 16g for now. Make that a constant. Try to extract about 25-28g out in about 30-35 seconds. Don’t worry about ounces.

[Benny Profane]

I read something that recommends you just leave beans in the bag you bought them in with the one way valve, the beans will keep off gassing which will protect them

These containers are awesome.

https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/ai...canister-64-oz

[zion zig zag]

“Double shots” involve 14-18g in at a 1.5-2.0 ratio out. Level the dosage say at just 16g for now. Make that a constant. Try to extract about 25-28g out in about 30-35 seconds. Don’t worry about ounces.

When you say try to extract 25-28 grams, you're talking the total weight of the shot? That would be one ounce, right (not trying to get tied up on ounces, but I want to make sure we're talking apples/apples)? I pulled those shots and it tasted bitter to me, which could be a preference thing, but I think it was actually too bitter.
For the sake of comparison, a single shot would be the same ratio, so say 8 grams in and 16 grams out. Seems like such a tiny amount of liquid as to not be worthwhile.
I need to find someone who is dialed and taste what they make, have them show me under and over extracted and what that tastes like.

[Doremite]

Yes talking weight of the liquid extracted. I go 18g in and end up around 30g out give or take 2g. 34-36 seconds total extraction time. Takes about 15 seconds before anything appears in the group head, flowing from the base of the basket. Are you perhaps waiting until there is flow before timing your extraction? Liquid flow of 15-20 seconds to generate that ~30g of liquid in my example.

[tgapp]

Yes talking weight of the liquid extracted. I go 18g in and end up around 30g out give or take 2g. 34-36 seconds total extraction time. Takes about 15 seconds before anything appears in the group head, flowing from the base of the basket. Are you perhaps waiting until there is flow before timing your extraction? Liquid flow of 15-20 seconds to generate that ~30g of liquid in my example.

^^ this is right

start your shot clock when you turn on the pump

don't stress time or weight too much, just use those as guidelines - anything well over 36g (we're talking like 60 or 70g) is too much, anything faster than 25 seconds or slower than 40 seconds is wrong on time

use this as a reference:



and remember, we're not drinking $10,000 burgundy wine here, there's no subtlety to espresso. you will KNOW if your shot is bitter or acidic or weak, no mistaking it

[cravenmorhead]

I've been running 14-16g ground coffee for 30-35ml (or g, good 'ol metric system...) shots. Seems to be in the ballpark.

[tgapp]

^^ also one more piece of advice - NEVER dump a shot without tasting it first

i've had some real winners that looked like anal secretions coming out of the basket. i was sure that the shot was headed for the shitsville sink only to sip in surprise and wonder. i've also had shots that looked excellent (great tiger striping in the basket/good timing/good spotting in the cup), but ended up turning into "accidental cappuccinos" you never know...but my point is, learn to follow flavor, as a home barista, the greatest asset you have is you can taste every shot you pull. baristas in coffee shops, while they do have a TON more volume, don't have that luxury, and so they therefor depend on metrics like shot time/weight as proxy measurements of quality. so at the end of the day, if it tastes good, it is good.

[Todd Zander]

Does the classic pro still come standard at a higher set pressure point for the pod basket things?

[jm2e]

I’ve convinced myself that distribution is at the root of my current struggle. The Breville grinder seems to be clumpier than average.
As I deliberate which accessory to buy next, I’ve made a cone/funnel out of junk mail. With that in place, I use a dinner fork and alternate between stabbing, stirring, and tapping. Seems to be helping.
Should I be looking at a $20 OCD rip off?


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[Doremite]

http://www.idailyart.com/product/dai...eel-rustproof/

[tgapp]

I’ve convinced myself that distribution is at the root of my current struggle. The Breville grinder seems to be clumpier than average.
As I deliberate which accessory to buy next, I’ve made a cone/funnel out of junk mail. With that in place, I use a dinner fork and alternate between stabbing, stirring, and tapping. Seems to be helping.
Should I be looking at a $20 OCD rip off?


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$20 knockoff is good, but honestly, so is the $2 dissection needle

before i did that i would find sewing needles, which is silly and easy to lose.