ON3P SKIS Discussion

[auvgeek]

I've never been to Crystal. This is my second season in the area. Last year, I was Alpental only. This year, I've been splitting my time between Alpy and Stevens. I might move to Issaquah before next winter, so I'd switch to Alpy and Crystal.

Man, the 184s were so good at Bridger... I have 2016 4frnt Renegades (186), which I took through the Northwest Passage the next morning, so I could hit the same snow. They really pissed me off because I'd throw them sideways to dump speed, the tips would start to catch, so I'd jump on the front of my boots and the tails would release and I'd almost spin around with me thinking "no goddamnit! point down, not up!" I've had some incredible days on the Rens, but the BGs worked better for those conditions.

Honestly, I think you might prefer the 184 unless you regularly thought the 186 Ren was too much ski. It also has a better resale value if you decide you want shorter vs buying the 179 and deciding you want the 184.

[Banh Mi]

Can Kartel 116s handle firm conditions like a bibby pro?

[SupreChicken]

Can Kartel 116s handle firm conditions like a bibby pro?

The caylor certainly could. K116 is supposed to much better all around than the caylor, so methinks yes...

[HukuTa_KydecHuk]

Can Kartel 116s handle firm conditions like a bibby pro?

I'd say no if kartel 116 flex is same to 108. I had 5 days with chopped/tracked out/wet chopped/refrozen snow on K108 and they are definitely less chargy than bibby. Tips are just too soft and I always felt speed limit on them.
For my taste, I found flex pattern of K108 very strange. I disagree on what blister said about nice ramp of flex on them. End of tips are very soft, but then they suddenly become really stiff. Really first time I was battling to butter them as I used to. The other thing in comparison to bibby is weight - mine K108 186 are almost 2400gr each, while bibby 184 is shorter but fatter at 2100gr. I never actually felt any additional dampness or stability cause of this, but weight difference on-snow was very noticeable.

[auvgeek]

^^I had similar experiences with the tips being soft and stiffening very quickly. That's why my ideal ski* would be a Kartel-like ski with the core milled thicker in the tips and tail but not really stiffer elsewhere. Less useful for buttering but much better for charging. (Also with a longer turn radius, minimal taper and ~110 underfoot.) Of course, ON3P can likely make you a custom K108 or K116 with the tip and tail stiffer, if you're happy with the current dims.

I do disagree on the weight, though. ON3P's bamboo has an amazing dampness and feel that Moment skis just don't have IMHO.

*Scott did say in the blister gear review that he'll probably make something if people bug him enough, so I'm just doing my part.

[Name Redacted]

TGR.Mag.Jessie ��

Just picked up a pair of Jessie's for the wife and some Wren's for myself. Thanks Iggyskier!

Now we'll still be one of those matchy couples.

[CascadeLuke]

I finally got to demo some asym Billy Goats at Bridger last Thursday.
I grabbed the skis and went straight up to Hidden Gully, then took the Outer Limits Traverse and found bliss. Thigh-deep 5% untracked, down to some slightly chopped up, slightly heavier snow. The whole way down I couldn't believe how easy the Billys made things. When I'm in chop, my instincts, when the ski tips start to catch, is to slam into the front of my boots and force the skis to point back down the fall line. The Billys did exactly what I want.
I'm going to buy some. The question is 179 or 184. I demo'd the 184, but I'm 5'6" and 145 lbs. I'm mainly going to ski Stevens Pass, Crystal, and Alpental, so It seems like the 179 should be better for PNW trees. If I lived in the Rockies, the 184 would be mine. Decisions, decisions...

I ski those hills, I'm bigger and on asym 189s. Think you genuinely could go either size. The skis are loose enough I'm not sure you need to size down because of trees. Its smart to take in account the location you'll mostly be at. Keep in mind these skis are built to last and you may be somewhere else in a few years and I'm sure you travel. If you're an aggressive skier on the younger side of old - I'd say 184. You'll appreciate the size in lower angle terrain, run outs, and weaker hills. And yes, resale.

[kid-kapow]

i'm roughly 5'8 / 150lbs and went with 179cm BGs (and 179cm w108s) on PowTrons recommendation. They work fine length wise - i have never felt undergunned, though i mostly ride denser, coastal snow. I also have BGs/w108s in 184 lenghts, but the 179s work fine for my uses.

my current ON3P quiver - pretty happy. I think it will see some changes for next season. I have yet to try the wren88s (will tomorrow) as well as the kartels. Absolutely love the wren108s, while the BGs and I have a relationship that is slowly getting up to steam. Wren114s might be a better fit for me - i dunno - time will tell.

[Banh Mi]

^^^ go ski those damn Kartels!!


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[TahoeJ]

So as far as the 108 Skinny Goat discussion goes, I'll chime in since I've had a pair for the past few seasons. It's essentially the Steeple 108 with a BG construction, 184cm length. I wouldn't recommend them in a 189 because if you need that extra length, chances are you weigh more and then you aren't going to get enough float from 108 underfoot for the sidecut to be appropriate. I'd probably draw the line for that ski at 185 pounds max (I'm 175) and otherwise they don't make much sense, which is probably why Scott has never made them a standard option.

I toured on mine 95% of the time with a few resort days mixed in. They're definitely improved on firm compared to regular Billy Goats, simply because they're less effort to put on edge. However, where they're fantastic is on a days where there's just a few inches of fresh and a regular BG would be a bit much. And at my weight they were also pretty damn fun even with over a foot of fresh.

I actually gave them to a friend a few weeks ago (he's paying me over time in beer, I suppose), since I had mounted mine with Guardians originally, then Kingpins, and after pulling those there was no way to get another mount on there properly on the line for my BSL. But for his boots he was able to get some STH's mounted no problem, and in truth they're perfect for him as a resort powder ski. He only weighs 155 pounds so they're essentially just Billy Goats on a diet. I actually think that's where the skinny goat design is best suited - for lighter folks who don't really need 116mm underfoot. I didn't have the heart to sell them and will be stoked seeing a friend make use of them instead.

This was my last day on them, clearly having a bad time...

[3PinGrin]

Disagree here.

Rocker profile needs to match the width. This was my beef with the Steeple 102. It had the same rocker shapes tip/tail as the BG, but not enough width to float well and not enough edge length to be stable on firm.

Awkward middle ground that was later fixed by increasing width, and probably with other tweaks that I stopped paying attention to after moving in a different direction for my touring boards.

Same observation has been made here recently (surprise!) with folks trying -10mm Praxis in a few models... they aren't as good as the purpose-built stock options on either side of their width.

Its fun to have the option to customize, but I'm inclined to trust the builders to optimize the shape, especially after solid experiments like the Steeple line.

New line looks awesome. Great work Scott & crew.

The 102 Steeple has been very good for touring for me so far. Caveat, I only have a handful of touring days on them, and the same lift served. I think a lot of us dream of 24" of blower pow all the time (and realize many are skiing deep pow often), but the reality for me is I am usually in a variety of conditions on the same day during a tour and powder is usually 12" or less the majority of the time. Just came off a long tour yesterday with 8" or so of sugary powder on top of firm up top with light crust in places followed by an icy bobsled run on the way out through the trees. They were awesome dropping off the top and I appreciated the thinner waist for the icy run out. It was nice to have such a damp stable ski coming out instead of some light fat-waisted chatterbox. I would also say they float pretty damn good for their width. Skiing these on tele bindings. A bit heavy for a touring ski, but I love em. I'm sure a 108 Steeple would be phenomenal for touring, but a bit heavier.

[mfa81]

i'm roughly 5'8 / 150lbs and went with 179cm BGs (and 179cm w108s) on PowTrons recommendation. They work fine length wise - i have never felt undergunned, though i mostly ride denser, coastal snow. I also have BGs/w108s in 184 lenghts, but the 179s work fine for my uses.

my current ON3P quiver - pretty happy. I think it will see some changes for next season. I have yet to try the wren88s (will tomorrow) as well as the kartels. Absolutely love the wren108s, while the BGs and I have a relationship that is slowly getting up to steam. Wren114s might be a better fit for me - i dunno - time will tell.

Seems like 176 k98 and 181 k108? how do you compare these two with bg 179? I’m 5’5” / 135 lbs and have bg 176, wanting to go up to asym 179 and get a 176 k108 for all mtn... I sometimes wish my bg was longer but didn’t have a 179 at the time

[iggyskier]

I'm going to buy some. The question is 179 or 184. I demo'd the 184, but I'm 5'6" and 145 lbs. I'm mainly going to ski Stevens Pass, Crystal, and Alpental, so It seems like the 179 should be better for PNW trees. If I lived in the Rockies, the 184 would be mine. Decisions, decisions...]

Normally at your height & weight I would suggest a 179cm, but if you skied the 184cm and liked it...hard to argue with that. Reality is that both would work - one a bit better in trees and tighter spots, one better in more open spots.

Alpy/Stevens I might lean 179cm. Crystal going to make the 184cm a bit more logically.

Can Kartel 116s handle firm conditions like a bibby pro?

Bibby's have less tail rocker and a bit stiffer flex from what I recall. Mount is a bit further back too. I think you would find them a bit more stable on harder snow. I have always viewed the Bibby as sitting between the Billy Goat & Jeffrey/Kartel lines as far as stability and function. Also, if you aren't not buying from us, I hope you are buying from Moment.

I'd say no if kartel 116 flex is same to 108. I had 5 days with chopped/tracked out/wet chopped/refrozen snow on K108 and they are definitely less chargy than bibby. Tips are just too soft and I always felt speed limit on them.
For my taste, I found flex pattern of K108 very strange. I disagree on what blister said about nice ramp of flex on them. End of tips are very soft, but then they suddenly become really stiff.

Looks like you were on a 2017 (first year) Kartel 108. I'd be curious to see your feedback on the 2018 or 2019 at some point. We adjusted the core profile so the flex was more even throughout and stiffer in the tips and tails specifically to give the skis a more consistent flex and turn shape. Flex wise, if the 2017 was "very soft" doubt the 2018/2019 would likely be in the flex range you want, but still think it would be interesting to see if the increase in the tips/tails stiffness offered you some modicum of stability increase.

Design wise, this sort of came of change shows the progression of where that ski came out of. Really started as a park-capable ski that didn't suck outside the park. The decrease rocker between 2017 & 2018 & the flex change were all changes made to shift them more and more all mountain. Same with the change from the Elliptical to Hybrid sidecut between 2018 and 2019.

^^I had similar experiences with the tips being soft and stiffening very quickly. That's why my ideal ski* would be a Kartel-like ski with the core milled thicker in the tips and tail but not really stiffer elsewhere. Less useful for buttering but much better for charging. (Also with a longer turn radius, minimal taper and ~110 underfoot.) Of course, ON3P can likely make you a custom K108 or K116 with the tip and tail stiffer, if you're happy with the current dims.

I do disagree on the weight, though. ON3P's bamboo has an amazing dampness and feel that Moment skis just don't have IMHO.

*Scott did say in the blister gear review that he'll probably make something if people bug him enough, so I'm just doing my part.

See above re-flex. Curious if you found the same thing on newer models. If you get on a pair let me know. I know the pair you are really thinking about, so obviously the Kartel 108 still isn't what you are looking for in its current specs, but would still be interesting to see.

[TahoeJ]

Scott - question about the touring layups. For the Wren 108 touring version, approximately how much weight does that shave off the standard layup? (say in a 184 size)

[auvgeek]

See above re-flex. Curious if you found the same thing on newer models. If you get on a pair let me know. I know the pair you are really thinking about, so obviously the Kartel 108 still isn't what you are looking for in its current specs, but would still be interesting to see.

Good to know. I'll ping Powtron to see if he has a pair of 2019 K108s in the Denver area I can ski this weekend.

[iggyskier]

Good to know. I'll ping Powtron to see if he has a pair of 2019 K108s in the Denver area I can ski this weekend.

He doesn't. Soonest demo around there would be Loveland on 3/28, but that fleet is all 2018.

Jay and ON3P actually decided to part ways recently, so if you guys need anything I'm the one to reach out to now. Though, haha, please don't PM me. As you can imagine, it gets hard to keep track of PMs. Email is much better. My email likely obvious, so that or the info account email best spot going forward.

[kid-kapow]

your estimated lenght is spot on, though i have yet to ski the kartels so cannot really comment on em. I would ideally run 181 in both kartel lengths, but got the 176cm 98s due to limited avaliability and their inteded use - playsticks

What you propose seems like the way to go for you and your size/weight. Should be an awesome two ski quiver.

btw - my original plan was to mount the wren108s and BGs with shifts, and have pivots on the other three. Went for the tectons on the w88s due to having an extra pair, whereas i would've had to buy some pivots - so decided to give the combo a go Who knows what will happen for next year. Perhaps i will go with shifts for some or the lot, maybe not.

[thebrucemac]

Looking good! New W96 will be mine.

[TAFKALVS]

For the dude questioning 179 vs 184 at Stevens - I'd do the 184 for extra float in the flat run-outs back to the lift ie the exits from tye bowl or wildcatz. Nice to not have wallow in the flats.

[stradissimo]

For the dude questioning 179 vs 184 at Stevens - I'd do the 184 for extra float in the flat run-outs back to the lift ie the exits from tye bowl or wildcatz. Nice to not have wallow in the flats.

Good point. I've done some wallowing below corona bowl this year on my Rens. Thanks

[Banh Mi]

Looking good! New W96 will be mine.

Same here. I liked the tychoon better for moguls and getting air, than my recent Head Monster 98s. W96 looks like it will fit right in between both. Best of both worlds. Stability and maneuverability.

I think I also will be snagging a Kartel next year, although I don’t know which width to go with.




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[steveski]

i'm roughly 5'8 / 150lbs and went with 179cm BGs (and 179cm w108s) on PowTrons recommendation. They work fine length wise - i have never felt undergunned, though i mostly ride denser, coastal snow. I also have BGs/w108s in 184 lenghts, but the 179s work fine for my uses.

my current ON3P quiver - pretty happy. I think it will see some changes for next season. I have yet to try the wren88s (will tomorrow) as well as the kartels. Absolutely love the wren108s, while the BGs and I have a relationship that is slowly getting up to steam. Wren114s might be a better fit for me - i dunno - time will tell.

If you decide to change things up and move any of those skis you should PM me...

[kid-kapow]

At TahoeJ:

weights:
179 wren88/tectons: 2746gr / 2737gr serial number 002
179 wren108/tectons: 2961gr / 2970gr serial number 002
179 BG/tectons: 2968gr / 2940gr serial number 005

So the weight is pretty much as advertised + a little bit for BGs (approx 40gr) and a little bit more for the wren108s (approx 100gr). I was honestly a bit surprised by the wren88s that are a whopping 200gr more than advertised, though they are beefy as all hell. That being said, i didn't weigh the skis prior to mounting the tectons, so some of the extra weight might come from them. I do not know. They are all kinda portly when compared to 176 BMT94/ vipecs at 1948gr, 176 bmt109/tecton at 2293gr and 176 bmt122/vipecs at 2473gr

Steveski: being based in scandic euroland, shipping fees would probably make any second hand ski purchases from me more expensive than getting em factory fresh from Iggy

[TahoeJ]

Kid kapow- those are all stock layups correct?

Those are some sweet setups... I just can’t go that heavy anymore as it’s no fun getting absolutely smoked by my friends on the skin track with lighter setups. But I’m curious to hear what a tour version of a Wren 108 weighs as it could be perfect for some shifts and a slack setup.

[Norseman]

I skied the morning on Joe's Skinny BillyGoats at Bridger. I don't disagree with your thoughts, I'd say the skinny goat had similar issues, however the shape would work great in soft funky in my opinion. My main issue is the flex seemed soft in that narrow width. Maybe that was a function of too much rocker or maybe the core needs to be beefed up a bit... not sure.

I guess I'd still prefer the width of the regular BG if there's anything soft to push around, including chunder and funk... not just to hit the proper stiffness for the shape, as you note (though of course that could be adjusted by other means), but moreso for having that underfoot width to give a stable two-footed platform for cruising the wonky snow. I think having 115+ underfoot is a nice aid to standing evenly on both feet in 3D snow and texture/windfunk while the rocker and RES beat and slice... till it gets too firm and the width becomes a detriment.

Seems like the Wren line is really polishing up nicely to fill the quiver spot we're talking bout, eh? The new 114 could even easily usurp the BG in the role that many of us use it for: directional soft snow charger. Are my cold dead hands loosening up? Hmm

Nice summary. I have your 102’s and I agree with the effective edge being less than ideal for stiff piste. And deeper than 8” I reach for my Lotus. And, I am exceedingly impressed with the way those 102’s work in the sub 10” storms. Especially if I am the trail-breaker on the up.

Cool, glad you are having fun on those. I liked them as well for the conditions you described, though I found those days to be in the minority for my location and touring habits... so passed them on.

100% agree here. It's definitely a sentiment that we and others have talked about for years but it gets lost because there's only so many times you can say the same thing before sounding like a broken record.

I wonder if a reason this "pow shape in a mid-fat width" appeals to some people (certainly not all) is they confuse the tool with the nail -- they love how a certain ski makes conditions feel effortless, and they want to replicate that feeling in less ideal conditions.

That said, I still think a -10 mm Praxis RX makes sense on paper because that design isn't really soft-snow specific and it's hard to find a progressive mount with a longer radius in sub-110 underfoot.

The RX has a low-30's radius, right? Not sure I quite see eye to eye with you on wanting the progressive mount WITH long radius... though I admit to being retarded when it comes to spinning and jibs n shit.

I would rather have a big tip out there on a directional ski if I'm riding a long radius edge and driving through the turn... and inversely, I would assume that the tricksters would find the long radius to get in the way of maneuverability for jibbing around.

Maybe my gauge is uncalibrated, but is there really much demand for a 105-waisted, 30+ meter radius, prog-mounted stiff ski?

Thanks very much. That was all I needed to talk me into buying one of the last two pairs of steeple 108's.

Sweet!

The 102 Steeple has been very good for touring for me so far. Caveat, I only have a handful of touring days on them, and the same lift served. I think a lot of us dream of 24" of blower pow all the time (and realize many are skiing deep pow often), but the reality for me is I am usually in a variety of conditions on the same day during a tour and powder is usually 12" or less the majority of the time. Just came off a long tour yesterday with 8" or so of sugary powder on top of firm up top with light crust in places followed by an icy bobsled run on the way out through the trees. They were awesome dropping off the top and I appreciated the thinner waist for the icy run out. It was nice to have such a damp stable ski coming out instead of some light fat-waisted chatterbox. I would also say they float pretty damn good for their width. Skiing these on tele bindings. A bit heavy for a touring ski, but I love em. I'm sure a 108 Steeple would be phenomenal for touring, but a bit heavier.

Yeah, besides the shape that we keep beating to death here, I was after something quite a bit lighter for touring.

I am a huge fan of the standard layup that ON3P has developed and think it's nearly ideal for resort riding, but I'm too much of a pussy to haul them around the far hills any more. Even the tour layup is heavy for it's size. There's just no getting around the density of boo!

Still waiting for Scott to kick out a hybrid core, primarily paulownia but with two long bamboo stringers of full core height vertically laminated with the p-wood, double carbon, single glass only under the binders, in a Wren 108 mold.