The baseball thread.

**iceman** · 11-14-2007, 01:45 PM

Oh no doubt, but he was a lot to give up just the same.

**pappag** · 11-14-2007, 01:50 PM

The Posada signing is a joke. I can't wait to see that guy bat .275 next year and drive in 72 runs. He'll be a backup catcher midway through the 2009 season.

**smmokan** · 11-14-2007, 01:52 PM

^^^ That's one outrageous signing that I actually agree with. Even if he "falls" back to the last few years' production, he's still one of the best catchers. Plus, with the alternatives on the FA market, there wasn't much to replace him.... the premium was worth it for him, IMO. I'm pretty sure they'll move him to 1B or DH-only after a couple seasons.

**MassLiberal** · 11-14-2007, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by iceman

Oh no doubt, but he was a lot to give up just the same.

I'll take dominant pitching over a great position player 7 days a week. if it wasn't for Beckett, we wouldn't have won the prize.

In fact I would go so far as to say that the sox got the best part of that deal.

And Skikola, resigning posada for that amount of money would be a horrible thing to do for 99% of the teams out there. And it may come back to haunt them in two years when his leg beneath the knee falls off during an at bat.

**Steven S. Dallas** · 11-14-2007, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by iceman

Oh no doubt, but he was a lot to give up just the same.

Yeah. Things look better than they did immediately after Anibal Sanchez had just thrown a no-hitter (and Cla Merideth was dominating the National League).

Actually, wait... National League. Who knows if these guys are actually any good.

**Adolf Allerbush** · 11-14-2007, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by smmokan

^^^ That's one outrageous signing that I actually agree with. Even if he "falls" back to the last few years' production, he's still one of the best catchers. Plus, with the alternatives on the FA market, there wasn't much to replace him.... the premium was worth it for him, IMO. I'm pretty sure they'll move him to 1B or DH-only after a couple seasons.

He's not that good of a hitter to DH. He's not that good of a fielder to make it reasonable for him to play at 1B day in and day out. Please reference the Martinez experiment in Cleveland for example. Posada's true value is at being an above average hitting catcher....other than that it's a waste to have him on the roster.

**skikola** · 11-14-2007, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by MassLiberal

And Skikola, resigning posada for that amount of money would be a horrible thing to do for 99% of the teams out there. And it may come back to haunt them in two years when his leg beneath the knee falls off during an at bat.

I can't argue a whole lot with that. But the fact remains that it WAS the right thing to do for the Yankees. The money means nothing to them, keeping him in pinstripes was a priceless outcome. Even if he breaks down in a couple years, it's not going to hurt the organization that much. By that time the Yankees will be rolling in money even more than they are now (new stadium).

**Lemmiwinks** · 11-14-2007, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Steven S. Dallas

Boy, I hope that doesn't happen. I don't think it will. Cabrera isn't controllable for long enough to make it worth their while. Maybe if he had a couple more years left on his deal, but as it is he's a fat moody fuck (who can hit for sure) who's as likely to leave when his current deal expires as anything else. Apparently the Florida people want him gone in part because he's a bad influence on Hanley Ramirez; they've tried to keep them separated but it hasn't worked.

I agree I wouldn't want that to go down either. Bucholz to me, and I'm sure Theo, is pretty much untouchable. Maybe if it was Ellsbury and a lesser pitching prospect I would do it (masterson?). But like you said Cabrera is only in his early/mid twenties and already has issues with his weight! Not a good sign at all.

**Lemmiwinks** · 11-14-2007, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by skikola

Offering Posada that was a great move. Didn't even give him a chance to think about dealing with another team. He's been getting better and better, and even if his body breaks down in a couple years behind the plate, he can DH. If his stats showed aging that would be a different story, but they just don't yet.
As for A-Rod, I sensed this would always be a possibility. I believed him when he said he was still interested in coming back after he opted out. He just listened to Boras too much, and seemingly he's recognizing that mistake. If he takes less money than what was originally offered to stay a yankee, I'll be very pleased.

The way I see it is the Yankees had to resign Posada, good move or not. They are moving to a new 1 billion dollar stadium and can't afford a dropoff in ticket sales. There would be way to much backlash if they let Posada go.

From a performance standpoint it is a really dumb signing. It may work out for the next two years, but eventually Posada's body will wear out and his production will go down. The man had a career year at age 36, its only going to be downhill from there, trust me.

You can spin it however you want, but this mirrors the Johnny Damon situation exactly.

But hey, Posada will at least be a better DH than Johnny Damon was, right?

EDIT: I agree with Skikolas last post.

**MassLiberal** · 11-14-2007, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by Lemmiwinks

I agree I wouldn't want that to go down either. Bucholz to me, and I'm sure Theo, is pretty much untouchable. Maybe if it was Ellsbury and a lesser pitching prospect I would do it (masterson?). But like you said Cabrera is only in his early/mid twenties and already has issues with his weight! Not a good sign at all.

Ellsbury is going to be a much more exciting player than Cabrera anyways. I don't want someone who is a clubhouse cancer hanging out with Ramirez either.

**smmokan** · 11-14-2007, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

He's not that good of a hitter to DH. He's not that good of a fielder to make it reasonable for him to play at 1B day in and day out. Please reference the Martinez experiment in Cleveland for example. Posada's true value is at being an above average hitting catcher....other than that it's a waste to have him on the roster.

I agree with what you said- but unfortunately, all things considered, the Yankees didn't have much room to negotiate. I think they had to sign him. The 4 years is a stupid move, but they didn't have much of a choice.

I was just saying that about 1B and DH because in two years, that's all he's going to be able to play.

Oh, and if they resign Rivera to a 3 yr/$45 mil contract- well that's just plain stupid.

**smmokan** · 11-14-2007, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by MassLiberal

Ellsbury is going to be a much more exciting player than Cabrera anyways. I don't want someone who is a clubhouse cancer hanging out with Ramirez either.

I'm excited to see how good of a player Ellsbury becomes. That kind plays hard, and he's got the talents to be real good. My best guess is that he turns into a Torii Hunter type player, with more speed and less power (couldn't think of anyone else to compare him to).

**MassLiberal** · 11-14-2007, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by smmokan

I'm excited to see how good of a player Ellsbury becomes. That kind plays hard, and he's got the talents to be real good. My best guess is that he turns into a Torii Hunter type player, with more speed and less power (couldn't think of anyone else to compare him to).

I think a cross between Hunter and Damon could be accurate.

**smmokan** · 11-14-2007, 08:20 PM

The big question is.... which idiot GM is Theo going to trick into taking Coco Crisp and giving him back something worthwhile. I know its going to happen.

**pappag** · 11-14-2007, 08:20 PM

Elsbury is going to pimp his way easy to an ROY next year.
I'm calling for .310 avg, 120 runs, 35 SB.

**Adolf Allerbush** · 11-14-2007, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by smmokan

The big question is.... which idiot GM is Theo going to trick into taking Coco Crisp and giving him back something worthwhile. I know its going to happen.

Cashman.

**Brock Landers** · 11-20-2007, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by Brock Landers

Jimmy Rollins...NL MVP

Rumor has it...

**smmokan** · 11-20-2007, 03:30 PM

^^^ The baseball writers are on a real roll this off-season. The Phils must have paid off a lot of guys to get Rollins the Gold Glove AND the MVP. I guess .340/36/137 with the most hits (and XBH too?) in the league isn't enough. East coast bias at its worst once again.

At least the Rockies won't have to pay Holliday even more if he had won the award.

**Tin Woodsman** · 11-20-2007, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by smmokan

^^^ The baseball writers are on a real roll this off-season. The Phils must have paid off a lot of guys to get Rollins the Gold Glove AND the MVP. I guess .340/36/137 with the most hits (and XBH too?) in the league isn't enough. East coast bias at its worst once again.

At least the Rockies won't have to pay Holliday even more if he had won the award.

As stupid as baseball writers are, even they know how to look up home/road splits. Matt Holliday is an average outfielder away from Coors Field.

**smmokan** · 11-20-2007, 04:45 PM

Funny, it looks like you're wrong. Holliday on the road: .301/11/55/.860 OPS... better than Rollins' road splits. Don't forget, Philly is just as much a hitters park as is Coors Field these days.

Anyways, here's my argument. The voters for NL ROY gave Braun the award for NUMBERS ONLY- they didn't take into account the defensive aspect of the game. Then, for some reason, why did they do a 180 for MVP and give Rollins the award for "his whole game"... if they were any kind of consistent, the awards would go to Tulo/Rollins or Braun/Holliday.

My other beef is for the 5 writers who gave Prince Fielder first place MVP votes. WTF?

**Steven S. Dallas** · 11-20-2007, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by smmokan

Funny, it looks like you're wrong. Holliday on the road: .301/11/55/.860 OPS... better than Rollins' road splits.

I think you're missing what he's saying- Rollins' numbers were nearly as good on the road as they were in Philly. Holliday was much, much, much better in Denver than on the road.

It was obviously down to these two guys; both teams closed really well to make the postseason, but Rollins plays a much more important position and is perceived as more of a leader and sparkplug kinda guy than Holliday.

**Adolf Allerbush** · 11-20-2007, 05:01 PM

It's not really fair to just compare their offensive stats. They are completely different players. Rollins is more of an all around player/athlete. Holliday is awesome but I think he'd even agree that playing SS is harder than the OF. Rollins is more of a mennace on the basepaths...he can just do so much to influence a game besides his hitting. I feel like Holliday doesn't have as much influence on the outcome of games.

**pappag** · 11-20-2007, 05:40 PM

Holliday was ROBBED.

He carried his team to the playoffs, whereas the Mets folded and GAVE it to the Phillies.

Just look at the numbers over the last two months when it mattered most.

Holliday:
August - .330 ave, .530 slg, 4 HR, 21 RBI
September - .367, .796, 12, 30

Rollins:
August - .296, .487, 4, 11
September - .298, .542, 6, 18

**Tin Woodsman** · 11-20-2007, 05:43 PM

Dallas and Adolf nail it.

Holliday's overall stat line wouldn't be nearly as impressive w/o the Coors effect, humidor or no humidor. Moreover, Rollins not only plays a MUCh more important defensive position, he is a plus defender at that position whereas Holliday is a half step above butcher status.

I'll grant you it's close, but looking only at Triple Crown stats and failing to adjust for home park context isn't a recipe for revealing nuggets of insight on the issue.

**Steven S. Dallas** · 11-20-2007, 05:47 PM

You're really comparing power numbers between a 5'8", 170 lb SS and a LF who's 6'4", 235?

Who gives a shit about the individual awards anyway? It's not like anyone will remember in five years.