Tell me one good reason why all cars aren't mandated to have daytime running lights?

[Crass3000]

Someone quotes you, states a contrarian fact, and then calls you a scum licking douchebag.

I can only guess that was the best you could come up with. I'm guessing your not too technical.

[Odin]

I can only guess that was the best you could come up with. I'm guessing your not too technical.

Now Now. I wasn't talking about you specifically, merely the status of common board discussion. Go back and read the posting and rest your faulting eyes my son.

Jeeze.

[uglymoney]

The alternator is always charging the battery per the voltage regulator. It doesn't engage and disengage, moron. Read that again, it is ALWAYS spinning when the engine is on, no clutch, nothing. Of course a fucking idiot like yourself can't understand this, you're a perfect tool for the global warming alarmists.
Try thinking for yourself using logic instead of parroting a bunch of garbage the next idiot feeds you.

Did I ever once say that an alternator has a clutch or that it turns on or off? Never.

PS-the plane WILL take off. Moron.

Umm, yeah. I couldn't participate in that thread at all because I really can't understand how people came to any other conclusion.

edit-I really like the part where you add that using DRLs causes global warming. That was a great little gem there, I just couldn't fit it into my sig.

I like that one as well. 8 billion pounds of CO2 per year. Is it worth it?

[SuperChief]

Uglymoney, Exactly how much fuel do your daytime running lights waste on your drive to work?

[Blurred]

I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong here cause I really don't know enough about alternators but I do have an electrical engineering degree -- after my response no doubt some may wonder how I got it.

As you say, and I agree, the alternator is most like likely hooked up to the serpentine belt and thus always turning when the engine is turning. You mention a voltage regulator which implies the output of said voltage regulator would be constant IF it can supply enough current to keep it's load powered. You can see the effect of it not supplying enough current when a person's headlights flash at a stopsign to the beat of the bass on a huge car audio system. Of course this does not imply anything you said was wrong, simply that the power is constant given the alternator is always rotating at a high velocity. When the velocity of the alternator is slowed down it can't put out as much current. I think you would probably agree with all this.

My point is that a voltage regulator does not always put out constant current -- it puts out constant voltage when it is not being overloaded. For simplicity let's assume we're not overloading the alternator. Your contention seems to be that no matter what the alternator is not just putting out constant voltage but also constant current. I could be wrong but it seems to me if this was true the battery would become overcharged and probably explode at some point. I think there must be some circuitry in the alternator that causes it to know when a greater load is being asked of it and thus responds by supplying the extra current.

We already agree that the alternator is constantly turning for the most part. If the voltage is fairly constant due to the voltage regulator, and you seem to imply that the current is also constant, which does not seem reasonable, why doesn't the battery become overcharged and blow up at some point?

I'm not saying I'm right here but I generally am curious as to how this works if I am wrong.

I don't have time to go into a ton of detail, but I'll throw down the basics.

Alternator is spun by a fan belt or serpentine belt, which is wrapped around the pully of the main engine crankshaft. Since rpms of your engine are not constant, neither is the output of the alternator. If you've ever had an amperage gauge on your dash, you know that it fluctuates. Voltage regulator does just that. Regulates electric current to the cars electrical system.
Ever wonder why parked Taxi cabs only have their parking lights on? Because without the rpms needed at idle, there's too much draw on the alternator and that burns them out. Same with car stereos, using more electric than the charging system can produce isn't good for them.

[Odin]

Blurred, don't prove me wrong goddammit!

[uglymoney]

OK, I'm on board with the others. You have absolutely no idea how an Alternator works. More current does not mean more drag. The copper coils still pass the magnets at the same speed at the same friction (btw - only friction is the ball bearings and the magnetic resistance, which is constant, since all the wires pass all the magnets all the time.) The only difference is how much of that current is drawn off by the voltage regulator.

Wrong. Voltage regulators are not heat sinks. Voltage regulators change the field current to the rotor which changes the magnetic field strength which increases the voltage output of the alternator. Automotive alternators are electromagnetic, which is convenient because that allows them to change their amperage output to keep the voltage at 14.5 volts. When they are spinning with a higher magnetic field strength they are harder to turn, thus creating more drag on the engine.

Alternators have Amperage ratings - that stays constant. You cannot cause an alternator to crank out more amps by increasing the draw. Your alternator will simply not do that. Thus heavy duty alternators exist that crank out more amps than the standard ones.

Yes they do have amperage ratings, but they do not run at full output all the time. If Subaru decides my car is never going to draw more than 50 amps even with all my lights, stereo, heated seats windows and mirrors, etc they put a 60 amp alternator on the car and call it good. When I'm idling with nothing on its probably only putting out a couple of amps per the voltage regulator which is sending almost no current to the rotor, if I'm pulling 50 amps it is sending close to 5 amps back to the rotor which as explained above causes the field strength to increase and the alternators output to increase.

[DJMingus]

Your confusing voltage with amperage. A good working alternator does put out 14.5 volts of current of close to that depending on the exact alternator. However the voltage regulator controls how many amps the alternator is putting out. If your car is drawing 20 amps total (all accessories, engine and battery), your alternator is putting out 20 amps. Say you then turn on the lights, the voltage will drop and in order to keep the voltage at 14.5 volts the voltage regulator will change the flow of current in the alternators windings so that the alternator is again at 14.5 volts, but that will mean its putting out more like 30 amps if we are talking low beams, maybe a little less for DRL's. Because there is more current going through the windings of the alternator, the alternator will be harder to turn, producing more drag, slightly lowering fuel economy.

This is the key point - is it or is it not true that an alternator putting out 30 amps has more resistance to spinning than one putting out 20 amps? I am not electrically knowledgeable so I'll accept your explanation of the alternator's adjusting it's output to the load. Makes sense to me.

I can't believe some electrical-nerd maggot hasn't given us a detailed analysis yet. With all the knowledge around here I expect to be educated as well as entertained when I login, dammit!

edited to say uglymoney was posting as I was and did elaborate on the reasons.

[Crass3000]

I don't have time to go into a ton of detail, but I'll throw down the basics.

Alternator is spun by a fan belt or serpentine belt, which is wrapped around the pully of the main engine crankshaft. Since rpms of your engine are not constant, neither is the output of the alternator. If you've ever had an amperage gauge on your dash, you know that it fluctuates. Voltage regulator does just that. Regulates electric current to the cars electrical system.
Ever wonder why parked Taxi cabs only have their parking lights on? Because without the rpms needed at idle, there's too much draw on the alternator and that burns them out. Same with car stereos, using more electric than the charging system can produce isn't good for them.

If you read all of what I wrote I think you would agree that we said exactly the same thing except you believe that the voltage regulator also regulates the current. I believe that the voltage regulator simply supplies the current that it is able to until it is at its limit. In other words... as far as current goes I think an alternator would be passive. I don't think a voltage regulator regulates current. My guess would be that there is additional ciruitry that must either shunt the extra current off when it isn't needed (assuming the alternator current is constant with constant velocity) or cause the alternator to not build up the current when it's not needed. In the second case there would be extra strain on the alternator if additional current was needed. In the first case I guess the power would just constantly be wasted. In any case the current output can't be constant unless it is shunted somehow or I think the battery would explode. Anyway... I actually have to get to work. Todays gonna be one of those 24 hour days (I think you know what I mean since you work in Telecom?)

[uglymoney]

Originally Posted by uglymoney
Yes, I can think of one case in which added electrical usage does not increase load on the alternator. Some outboards boat engines use the block as a heat sink and the alternator runs full time all the time. They can get a way with that since they are water cooled from a lack with unlimited cool water./ In that case you all are right, but not with cars.

What in the hell are you talking about?

I'm talking about some OMC outboards produced in the nineties specifically, the one I am familiar with is a 122 cubic inch two stroke loop charged v4. There probably is more examples of alternators that produce constant current in motor vehicles, but I don't know of any. In the case of these boat motors, the alternator is actually built into the flywheel with no voltage regulator. It goes full output all the time. The extra current is absorbed by a large and heavy resistor that is bolted to the block. The block and resister are water cooled. It works, but for this and other reasons that motor is a fuel hog.

[Blurred]

Turn you headlights on and off and you can hear your motor speed increase and decrease as the drag comes and goes.

I'm still laughing at this.

So uglymonkey, tell me why my RPMs stay EXACTLY the same while my car is idling and I turn the headlights on and off. Is it because the cause and effect are so minute, only proving that you've resorted into pulling straws along with shit out of your ass in order to save face?

Hope you wash your car for that "improved" fuel economy you keep talking about. I also hope you only fill up your gas tank half way, cuz that extra weight of a full tank only contributes to poor gas mileage and global warming.

[Crass3000]

Hope you wash your car for that "improved" fuel economy you keep talking about. I also hope you only fill up your gas tank half way, cuz that extra weight of a full tank only contributes to poor gas mileage and global warming.

In any case I'm sure we're splitting hairs as Blurred implied.

[Beaver]

I had a good post with quotes and rebuttals but I think I'll just sit back and let those who have no clue remain clueless. There is some really entertaining reading in this thread if you are an electrical engineer.

Edit: Crass, go pull out a text book or do some surfing before you make yourself look bad next time. I'm off to look at the wonder woman thread.

[Crass3000]

I had a good post with quotes and rebuttals but I think I'll just sit back and let those who have no clue remain clueless. There is some really entertaining reading in this thread if you are an electrical engineer.

I'm an EE geek. Fill us all in on the real scoup. I think Uglymoney isn't as off as everybody thinks. The whole shunting of current that isn't needed doesn't make sense (in a car). Assuming an alternator has a voltage regulator and an invertor for AC/DC conversion etc. it would not necessarily put out constant current. Only the current that was drawn from it? Maybe there isn't even any necessary secondary curcuitry. But there must be some to at least charge up the battery a little.

[mcsquared]

I'm an EE geek. Fill us all in on the real scoup. I think Uglymoney isn't as off as everybody thinks.

Me too. And with the whole signature-quoting thing, this has potential for real drama and backpedaling.

[uglymoney]

I'm still laughing at this.

So uglymonkey, tell me why my RPMs stay EXACTLY the same while my car is idling and I turn the headlights on and off. Is it because the cause and effect are so minute, only proving that you've resorted into pulling straws along with shit out of your ass in order to save face?

Well they change slightly on my Suby. You might have to resort to turning on a couple of other accessories to get the desired effect.

Why would I worry for a moment about saving face? That should be for those that jumped my ass about something that I was entirely correct about. Its all in good trollish fun till people that haven't met me start calling me a douchenozzle, retard, and other assorted names rather than arguing with the facts.

The safety aspect of DRL's is not something we can solve here, its muddled science with lots of variables. Rather than argue about the efficacy of DRL's I'm putting my weight behind a mandate for low power DRL's if they were ever mandated. That would satisfy my concerns concerning our energy and environmental security.

[Tippster]

Wrong. Voltage regulators are not heat sinks. Voltage regulators change the field current to the battery which changes the magnetic field strength which increases the voltage output of the alternator. Automotive alternators are electromagnetic, which is convenient because that allows them to change their amperage output to keep the voltage at 14.5 volts. When they are spinning with a higher magnetic field strength they are harder to turn, thus creating more drag on the engine.



Yes they do have amperage ratings, but they do not run at full output all the time. If Subaru decides my car is never going to draw more than 50 amps even with all my lights, stereo, heated seats windows and mirrors, etc they put a 60 amp alternator on the car and call it good. When I'm idling with nothing on its probably only putting out a couple of amps per the voltage regulator which is sending almost no current to the rotor, if I'm pulling 50 amps it is sending close to 5 amps back to the rotor which as explained above causes the field strength to increase and the alternators output to increase.

I'll buy that.

[PNWbrit]

DRLs are rapidly becoming this year's jumbo jet on a treadmill.

I'm not sure I understand the motorcyclists argument that DRLs for all make them less visible. Someone explain me.

[uglymoney]

I'll buy that.

That should read change the field current to the rotor. Typo corrected.

[Blurred]

I think this thread went from dumb to hilarious only because those that don't know what they're talking about haven't been able to Google their answers like they usually do and are standing there like a deer in the headlights....or would that be DRLs?

[philippeR]

I guess what he's saying is that if all cars have lights on then motorcycles won't stand out as much, so it'll be a more dangerous environment overall for motorcyclists. I don't think the cause and effect is really there - a light is a light - but who knows.

Precisely. I ride a bike every day in heavy traffic and I think bikes need to the extra visibility.
But my take and yours on this may differ according to where we live and ride / drive.

And the alternator uses gas people ! Not much, but enough that new eco, "green" engines (by BMW for instance) disengage the alternator when it's not necessary.
Because, yes, as pointed out, the energy has to come from somewhere. Lavoisier, anyone ?

Edit : this one's for you Blurred.

[philippeR]

DRLs are rapidly becoming this year's jumbo jet on a treadmill.

I'm not sure I understand the motorcyclists argument that DRLs for all make them less visible. Someone explain me.

Because a bike with lights on among cars with lights off will stand out. While a bike with DRL among cars with DRL is just a light among others lights. But my perspective is a euro one. Where I ride, bikes split lines and, generaly speaking, do not behave as cars do. Thus they need to be easily noticed.
In the US, where bikers are expected to behave like cagers (stay in line !), the issue is probably less crucial.

And the plane will take off !

[Tippster]

Pretty sure the biker would rather be able to see the cars easier - at least I would. Once again - it's a lesser of two evils. Seems to me if you teach people in France that ALL Headlights are to be avoided then you wouldn't have a problem.

Lane-Splitting is asking for trouble. The benefits to drivers outweigh the needs of a few bikers in a hurry, IMHO. You guys should act like cars do - hell, you should be even MORE cautious since you're more vulnerable.

[PNWbrit]

Because a bike with lights on among cars with lights off will stand out. While a bike with DRL among cars with DRL is just a light among others lights. But my perspective is a euro one. Where I ride, bikes split lines and, generaly speaking, do not behave as cars do. Thus they need to be easily noticed.
In the US, where bikers are expected to behave like cagers (stay in line !), the issue is probably less crucial.

And the plane will take off !

Still don't get the whole "standing out" thing.

You do have point about different attitiude amongst euro/us bikers.

Pet peeve: middle age crisis fat Harley/Harley-clone/Goldwing dude in leather pants with fringed saddlebags acting like someone appointed him the left hand fucking lane speed limit vigilante.

"sorry officer I mowed into him at 90 mph because I was trying to make sure my DRLs were switched off so as not to cause abnoxious reflections from all the chrome doodads he'd bolted onto his lame excuse for a motorbike."

[cantunamunch]

I like that one as well. 8 billion pounds of CO2 per year. Is it worth it?

How many billion pounds for car stereo kicker boxes?

No need to quote numbers for the entire US, southern CA will do just fine.