Michael Moore

[Chemical Ali' The Wax Master]

Would Michael Moore be less annoying to watch if he did not look like he had a liposuction on reverse stuck up his ass?

[Sirshredalot]

Yes, but he would still be quite annoying.

[Jer]

If he were only 140lbs he'd still be a complete douche. But since he's a fat lard, it's fun to rip on him for that as well. Seriously, him doing a "documentary" on health care is about as credible as Robert Downey doing a documentary on living the clean life. Dude should have died due to complications from diabetes years ago..

[stupendous man]

If he were only 140lbs he'd still be a complete douche. But since he's a fat lard, it's fun to rip on him for that as well. Seriously, him doing a "documentary" on health care is about as credible as Robert Downey doing a documentary on living the clean life. Dude should have died due to complications from diabetes years ago..

This makes utterly no sense. Why are you typing? He's not arguing for the best way to take care of your personal health, he's deconstructing a system that is designed to put profit above your personal health.

[Chemical Ali' The Wax Master]

This makes utterly no sense. Why are you typing? He's not arguing for the best way to take care of your personal health, he's deconstructing a system that is designed to put profit above your personal health.

I think what he is saying is that if people would take a little responsibility for there own well being, then health care may not be as much as an issue. and he is a big fat fucking used tampon with a yeast infection.

[focus]

I think what he is saying is that if people would take a little responsibility for there own well being, then health care may not be as much as an issue. and he is a big fat fucking used tampon with a yeast infection.

That might hold water if professional prevantative care was realistically attainable for those who can't afford health insurance. As it is....

The denigrating comments re: Mr. Moore are pretty similar to those hurled at Al Gore and his lifestyle. Unfortunately, these comments have jack shit to do with the vailidity of the points these gentlemen raise. They're tangential at best, and are a woeful distraction from the messes that we're making for ourselves.

[Adolf Allerbush]

If he were only 140lbs he'd still be a complete douche. But since he's a fat lard, it's fun to rip on him for that as well. Seriously, him doing a "documentary" on health care is about as credible as Robert Downey doing a documentary on living the clean life. Dude should have died due to complications from diabetes years ago..

So, using this logic a white person can have no view on racism.

[Sirshredalot]

So, using this logic a white person can have no view on racism.

Because most of our health care costs in this country come from a very small number of people, and those health care costs come largely from people who lead unhealthy lifestyles, Michael Moore is more analagous to a klan member preaching about racism.

[focus]

Because most of our health care costs in this country come from a very small number of people, and those health care costs come largely from people who lead unhealthy lifestyles, Michael Moore is more analagous to a klan member preaching about racism.

No, in this instance, a klan member preaching about racism is more like a health insurance company CEO making SiCKO. If you've actually watched the movie, it's about the health care system. Preventative care is a very large part of the equation. Actually, there are some interesting points made in the movie about how those in some countries w/ socialized health care take preventative care much more seriously.

Some people are pretty frickin hopeless when it comes to analogies....

Actually, I don't know why you'd have a problem with a klan member coming out against racism and making a documentary of it. That isn't absurd.

[Sirshredalot]

No, in this instance, a klan member preaching about racism is more like a health insurance company CEO making SiCKO. If you've actually watched the movie, it's about the health care system. Do you think if fewer people got sick our system would be any better?

Some people are pretty frickin hopeless when it comes to analogies....

If fewer people got sick from leading unhealthy lifestyles, everyone's health care would be cheaper. Just as if we had fewer people supporting the klan, then we would have less racism, get it?

When my insurance bill comes to me, I'm not paying for the 10% likelihood that I'm going to break my arm or 5% likelihood that I'm going to blow out my ACL; I'm largely paying for the obese and 3-pack-a-day-smokers, etc. Michael Moore and his gigantic ass are part of that problem.

[focus]

bullshit. As a regular participant of a dangerous action sport, you're just as big a part of the "problem."

In the movie, the failings of the health care system are presented as a fundamental conflict of interest. This is contrasted with systems in other countries. Lifestyle choices and the US healthcare system may be distantly related issues, but they are NOT the SAME issue. The only point of debate is how distant.

[MeatPuppet]

You know, if God, or aliens who could control the future, came to me today and told me I was going to be in a terrible car accident tomorrow and they were giving me the choice of what country to have this accident in. I would choose the United States.

Now, with that in mind, I have to ask myself: Do these people who have given up the best years of their life to learn medicine, to develop the skill to hold life and death in their hands, do they have a right to charge a premium for their services/knowledge/skill? The answer is yes.

In the same vein, I have to ask, do I, as a medically unskilled/uneducated person, have a right to expect these highly skilled people to give me their expertise(that they traded a large portion of their life to acquire) for a reduced rate, or for free(i.e. do I have a right to their expertise), the answer is no.

I haven't seen that piece of human debris's latest movie, but I get really, really tired of hearing people whining about the cost of health care.

Health care is not a right. It is a privilege.

Everyone gets sick. Everyone will, eventually, die. If you have the means to access the expertise of these amazing people in our society, then you can live healthier and perhaps longer. But nobody is entitled to the life(remember, these people traded the best years of their life for this knowledge/ability) of another.

The arrogance of some people amazes me.

[mr_gyptian]

That might hold water if professional prevantative care was realistically attainable for those who can't afford health insurance. As it is....

The denigrating comments re: Mr. Moore are pretty similar to those hurled at Al Gore and his lifestyle. Unfortunately, these comments have jack shit to do with the vailidity of the points these gentlemen raise. They're tangential at best, and are a woeful distraction from the messes that we're making for ourselves.

if you are a fat ass, and fat asses are the the root cause of heart disease, cancer, diabetes resulting in the largest reason for lost work days and the largest weight on our healthcare system you would be making this movie too. it is an act of self interest. this guy manages his money like Mike Tyson and will be on the public dole again.

[Sirshredalot]

bullshit. As a regular participant of a dangerous action sport, you're just as big a part of the "problem."

No, that is completely untrue. For the most part, I'm risking a one-time expense of a broken arm or a snapped ligament. This is a very minor expense compared to people who are risking chronic/delibilitating conditions by engaging in risky activities of the sort that expand one's ass to Moore-esque dimensions. AND we have laws that group the rest of us in the same insurance pools as people like Moore. Our poor lifestyle choices and obesity epidemic (along with the aging of the population) are probably the largest contributing factors to our poor expenditure/health outcome ratio in this country, whether one is discussing the private sector (about 50% of the market) or the public sector (the other 50% of the market). And if you're talking about improving our health-care system and you're not focusing on the expenditure/health outcome ratio, then you're completely missing the big picture.

[focus]

You know, if God, or aliens who could control the future, came to me today and told me I was going to be in a terrible car accident tomorrow and they were giving me the choice of what country to have this accident in. I would choose the United States.

Now, with that in mind, I have to ask myself: Do these people who have given up the best years of their life to learn medicine, to develop the skill to hold life and death in their hands, do they have a right to charge a premium for their services/knowledge/skill? The answer is yes.

In the same vein, I have to ask, do I, as a medically unskilled/uneducated person, have a right to expect these highly skilled people to give me their expertise(that they traded a large portion of their life to acquire) for a reduced rate, or for free(i.e. do I have a right to their expertise), the answer is no.

I haven't seen that piece of human debris's latest movie, but I get really, really tired of hearing people whining about the cost of health care.

Health care is not a right. It is a privilege.

Everyone gets sick. Everyone will, eventually, die. If you have the means to access the expertise of these amazing people in our society, then you can live healthier and perhaps longer. But nobody is entitled to the life(remember, these people traded the best years of their life for this knowledge/ability) of another.

The arrogance of some people amazes me.

I come from a familiy of doctors (great-grandfather, grandfather, father, uncles, etc. -- I broke the chain) and I agree with the majority of what you said. What I struggle with (and this isn't something I'm completely off the fence on) is a middleman making a profit on the transaction. Is there a better way to pay these doctors? That's what a large part of the debate is about, IMO.

Just for an anecdotal perspective: My father's an ER doctor. He believes the system sucks and perpetuates many of our health problems (obesity, substance abuse, etc.). He's a very strong advocate of a socialized healthcare system, even though it means he'd probably make less money.

[cj001f]

snip

I notice you chose to exclude the very real chance of a chroic/debilitating injury from your activities.

As for you hypothesis - it's not particularly well supported by fact, but why let that stop you?

[Cyber Cop]

Health care is not a right. It is a privilege.

Was public education always a right in this country? Rights are those things granted citizens by citizens. If we want to make basic health care a right what is stopping us? There are just certain things that make life and society more civilized.

[focus]

if you are a fat ass, and fat asses are the the root cause of heart disease, cancer, diabetes resulting in the largest reason for lost work days and the largest weight on our healthcare system you would be making this movie too. it is an act of self interest. this guy manages his money like Mike Tyson and will be on the public dole again.

Right. He made the movie b/c he's obese.

Fucking brilliant.

[MeatPuppet]

Was public education always a right in this country? Rights are those things granted citizens by citizens. If we want to make basic health care a right what is stopping us? There are just certain things that make life and society more civilized.

I don't believe that education is a right.


If we want to institute/recognize/create(out of whole cloth) some moral obligation that those in the health care industry have to everybody else, then we need to pay for every penny of their education and then give them a stipend to live on as they go through medical school. Until we do this; health care is a privilege.


Edit: Oh, and this is critical, rights are not created/granted. Rights exist or they don't. We have the choice of recognizing them, or not. Entitlements are created, rights are not, and there is nothing that anyone in the general public has done(as of yet) that entitles them to the expertise of those in the medical community.

[Sirshredalot]

I notice you chose to exclude the very real chance of a chroic/debilitating injury from your activities.

As for you hypothesis - it's not particularly well supported by fact, but why let that stop you?

Short of a freak spinal cord injury (god forbid), my activities won't lead to a chronic/debilitating injury that places a large burden on our health care system. The chances of that happening are mighty slim. The chances of Michael Moore and other people like him suffering chronic, obesity-related illness is extremely likely. As his generation ages, I'm going to be paying for his treatment through Medicare. That's also extremely likely.

Why do you suppose my hypothesis that unhealthy lifestyles are leading to a massive burden for our health care system is incorrect? We spend far more on our health care than any other developed country in the world, we have the most skilled physicians in the world, and our life expectancy and quality of life measures still lag many other developed countries. Also, we are the fattest country in the HISTORY OF THE WORLD and our type 2 diabetes rates have skyrocketed over the past several decades and now include a significant number of children. Nearly all of our health-care expenditure is focused on a relatively small percentage of the population that is either chronically ill or dying. This is all fact. How much of it will be solved by just transitioning to a single-payer system as Moore undoubtedly espouses? My best guess is none.

[cj001f]

Short of a freak spinal cord injury (god forbid), my activities won't lead to a chronic/debilitating injury that places a large burden on our health care system. The chances of that happening are mighty slim. The chances of Michael Moore and other people like him suffering chronic, obesity-related illness is extremely likely. As his generation ages, I'm going to be paying for his treatment through Medicare. That's also extremely likely.

Why do you suppose my hypothesis that unhealthy lifestyles are leading to a massive burden for our health care system is incorrect? We spend far more on our health care than any other developed country in the world, we have the most skilled physicians in the world, and our life expectancy and quality of life measures still lag many other developed countries. Also, we are the fattest country in the HISTORY OF THE WORLD and our type 2 diabetes rates have skyrocketed over the past several decades and now include a significant number of children. Nearly all of our health-care expenditure is focused on a relatively small percentage of the population that is either chronically ill or dying. This is all fact. How much of it will be solved by just transitioning to a single-payer system as Moore undoubtedly espouses? My best guess is none.

so you feel fat people are the problem. cool

It'd highly unlikely you'll pay for Michael Moore's care through Medicare. Just saying.













OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH AND MORE MEATPUPPET PHILOSOPHICAL PEDANTRY! OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHH

[focus]

I don't believe that education is a right.


If we want to institute/recognize/create(out of whole cloth) some moral obligation that those in the health care industry have to everybody else, then we need to pay for every penny of their education and then give them a stipend to live on as they go through medical school. Until we do this; health care is a privilege.

They do have a generally recognized moral obligation.

Nobody said it should be free. Nobody said they shouldn't be well paid. Some people just think that a healthier citizenry would be a good thing. How do we accomplish this? Socialized health care programs seem to be a viable solution.

How does society progress? How do you gauge different degrees of civilization? The one with police and fire departments would seem to be further along than the one without. If another has police, fire, and public education -- well..... Is health care not one of these steps?

[Cyber Cop]

I don't believe that education is a right.


If we want to institute/recognize/create(out of whole cloth) some moral obligation that those in the health care industry have to everybody else, then we need to pay for every penny of their education and then give them a stipend to live on as they go through medical school. Until we do this; health care is a privilege.

I bet teachers would be happy to take that deal.

Offering basic health care is not going to stop specialist in the medical field from making large salaries. The problem is not the medical field anyway, it is the insurance companies taking huge sums out of the system and in the end offering an inferior product. That's why we have to buy supplemental insurance to avoid bankruptcy from a catastrophic illness. Even with a health plan the out of pocket expenses can be huge.

[Sirshredalot]

[QUOTE=cj001f;1346405]so you feel fat people are the problem. cool

It'd highly unlikely you'll pay for Michael Moore's care through Medicare. Just saying.



Firstly, I don't just feel that fat people are a major and rapidly growing source of health care costs in this country and in the developed world in general. The WHO and CDC will back me up on this one, if you care to peruse their web site. If you're more concerned about cost figures, I suggest checking out some of the nice papers published by the faculty at UNC and Johns Hopkins. Go read this crap. I have. Insurance pooling/moral hazard is a bitch, and I do exhibit some of it myself in the way I ski (I ski differently when I'm uninsured). There is no panacea or easy answer to our health care problems in the US if you want to look at things from an epidemiology/public health point of view. Maybe a Swiss system would be an improvement because it would eliminate free-riders?

As Medicare is set up currently, I fully anticipate paying for Michael Moore's health care should he live to his late '60's. If you're younger than him, so should you. If you don't, the IRS will repo your house.

Now, if you want to argue in terms of responsibility to other human beings, then I'm afraid you're going to have to engage Meatpuppet's "philosophical pedantry."

[cj001f]

Now, if you want to argue in terms of responsibility to other human beings, then I'm afraid you're going to have to engage Meatpuppet's "philosophical pedantry."

9.1% of the US medical costs is pretty small
http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/obes...nsequences.htm