Michael Moore

[woodstocksez]

Look, it's like this. If I have to look at Michael Moore, then you all god damn well have to put up with my kids peering at you in the next booth over. Fair is fair.

[MeatPuppet]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH AND MORE MEATPUPPET PHILOSOPHICAL PEDANTRY! OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHH

C'mon man! I'm a loser. I sit in my mom's basement, in my underwear, drinking cheap scotch(foodstamps only go so far...) and typing on the internet. This is all I have to look forward to. Can you give me a break?!?



























On another note...

Words have meaning. Too many people want to throw around words that have power and use them(incorrectly) for self serving purposes. People claiming that they have a right to somebody else's expertise is an example.

Besides, you have nothing better to add

They do have a generally recognized moral obligation.

They have a moral obligation to render aid in a time of need. I'm not sure that extends to a general practice. At what point in their medical training do they no longer have control over their own time and choices?

Nobody said it should be free. Nobody said they shouldn't be well paid. Some people just think that a healthier citizenry would be a good thing. How do we accomplish this? Socialized health care programs seem to be a viable solution.

We do that at the expense of quality. Show me any nation in the world with a socialized health care system and I will show you a nation who's physicians are, on average, less skilled than ours. This is not a slight on foreign doctors, it's just fact. The free market system produces a better product than institutionalized health care.

How does society progress? How do you gauge different degrees of civilization? The one with police and fire departments would seem to be further along than the one without. If another has police, fire, and public education -- well..... Is health care not one of these steps?

That's a matter of debate. Some would say yes, others would say no. I say no.

I bet teachers would be happy to take that deal.

Teachers are government employees, paid out of the public dole. Other than the military, I don't think doctors have that option available to them.

Offering basic health care is not going to stop specialist in the medical field from making large salaries. The problem is not the medical field anyway, it is the insurance companies taking huge sums out of the system and in the end offering an inferior product. That's why we have to buy supplemental insurance to avoid bankruptcy from a catastrophic illness. Even with a health plan the out of pocket expenses can be huge.

Nobody is forcing anyone to go through insurance companies. They are just the cheapest option. You get what you pay for.

I know, I'm an evil capitalist. But if somebody pays for their own education, I believe they have the right to charge what they want. If you or I can't afford them, then we have to go with cheaper options. That means that the treatment/options available to us will not be as good as the best our society has to offer. But I have to ask, which would you prefer; the average HMO of today, or the best humanity had to offer in 1890?

As a society we are making consistent, steady progress. Too many people think their existence entitles them to the best our society has to offer. They are simply mistaken.

[focus]

So fat people are the reason the US healthcare system is inefficient and corrupt?

The movie is about the health care system, and more specifically about HMO's and health insurance companies. It's about who receives care, who pays for care, and how it's handled. Solving the obesity epidemic is a different issue entirely. Do you really not see the difference?

Meatpuppet: Can the efficiencies and level of care achieved by our current system be achieved through a single payer system? Is it possible? Is our level of care so high because some people get turned away because they can't pay? I think it's worth thinking about.

[cj001f]

So fat people are the reason the US healthcare system is inefficient and corrupt?

Comeon man, it's an easy excuse. Let them believe it.

[woodstocksez]

So fat people are the reason the US healthcare system is inefficient and corrupt?

No, that's silly, of course. They are a horrible eyesore, though. Shouldn't we do something about that?

[cj001f]

No, that's silly, of course. They are a horrible eyesore, though. Shouldn't we do something about that?

mmm soylent green

[woodstocksez]

mmm soylent green

And such a bang for the buck! You're a genius!

[Cyber Cop]

I know, I'm an evil capitalist. But if somebody pays for their own education, I believe they have the right to charge what they want. If you or I can't afford them, then we have to go with cheaper options. That means that the treatment/options available to us will not be as good as the best our society has to offer. But I have to ask, which would you prefer; the average HMO of today, or the best humanity had to offer in 1890?

So how much government money went into funding research that gives US doctors the best training, information and medicines? If you want to live by your ideology of you only get what you pay for then I challenge you to do that. You can start by staying off our highways and out of our forests. Well I guess you can use the square inch in Utah that you paid for, but you better hurry before it burns.

Oh, and pay graduates of state schools less, because I subsidized their education.

[MeatPuppet]

So how much government money went into funding research that gives US doctors the best training, information and medicines? If you want to live by your ideology of you only get what you pay for then I challenge you to do that. You can start by staying off our highways and out of our forests. Well I guess you can use the square inch in Utah that you paid for, but you better hurry before it burns.

Oh, and pay graduates of state schools less, because I subsidized their education.

Doctors are part of the free market system. Just like any other professional.

We have decided to allow public money to be used to build and maintain a highway system. Same for National forests. If doctors salaries were paid with public money, you would have a point. As of today, they are not. So the comparison is a bad one.

If we, as a society, decide to fund the education of some, or all, doctors, then the general public will be entitled to their expertise. As of today, that is not the case.


Edit for clarity: I don't have a problem with socialized health care. I have a problem with forcing it on those who didn't sign up for it. This applies to the doctors and the patients. If doctors want to sign up for a government job helping those without health insurance, that's great. But it shouldn't be grandfathered in and forced on everyone.

The idea that our society can decide that a whole class of professional people are suddenly obligated to give their services to the public at a reduced rate is absurd. Yet, that's just what(too many) people want to do. The term "tyranny of the majority" comes to mind.

[The AD]

I'm here to post in another important thread about how fat Michael Moore is.

[cj001f]

I'm here to post in another important thread about how fat Michael Moore is.

more fat people = fewer people per airplane = more planes sold

[Benny Profane]

Because most of our health care costs in this country come from a very small number of people, and those health care costs come largely from people who lead unhealthy lifestyles

A dirty little secret that Hillary's commitee dug up in '91 and really isn't a secret to health care professionals and people like me who have had a parent spend the last few months of their lives in and out of Intensive Care, is that a VERY large proportion of our health care costs are used in something like the LAST 28 days of an average person's life. My father's hospital bills came to over 600 grand for 3 months care, and, it may sound cruel, but they were just keeping him alive. And that was in '89.
Walk into any hospital, and you'll find mostly elderly people who really don't want to be there effectively spending almost 100 times as much as they had all their lives before that for health care. This is a problem if we want a more equitable system. Somebody has to budget and decide when, to, well, pull the plug.

And, although I'm appreciative of Moore starting a dialogue about this issue, which is the best one can do these days, I agree that he is a horrible spokesman. Obesity leads to onset diabetes, pure and simple, and diabetes is a horrible and insidious disease that erodes the body over many years, but with the expensive, modern technology that we have created, and the profit motive that feeds it, we can keep sufferers alive for a long, expensive time. A fat, middle class American can be worth a million bucks to the medical and hospital and drug industry, and don't fucking kid yourself that there aren't people wearing ties in cubes working to get their share. And it is a serious problem. NYC is calling it an epedemic within the five boroughs.

My father died from complications of onset diabetes, so I've seen how dismal those last ten years can be. That's why I eat right and exercise. And always carry good insurance.

[Plakespear]

Hey. MeatPuppet- FUCK YOU. Come back when you are told at the age of 28 you have cancer, are working two part time jobs in lieu of full time, and have no health insurance. And just for some background info, at the time of my initial diagnosis, I was in better than average shape, nowhere near overweight, a non-smoker, ate fairly healthy (certainly better than most single guys my age), went to the gym and/or road biked at least 5 days a week. Are you telling me that because at that time in my life I was experiencing a rut economically I should not have been given acess to health cae because I couldn't afford it? By your reasoning, I should be dead right now.

You claim doctors are highly trained professonals, who have the right to charge premiums for their skils. I coud not agree more. My doctors earn every cent they make. However, I also believe ha everyone as a fundamental right to their services. If criminals are constitutionaly guaraunted the right to an attorney, give me one good reason (besides you libertarian BS philosophy) why a sick person shuld not be garuneed the right to see a doctor?

Of course the majrity of health care expenses goes toward a minority fo perople. How many of you had over $100K in medical expenses last year. Of course the smallest percentage will use more money. Healthy people don't need meds, surgery, rehab, hospital stays, repeated doctor's visits, etc.

[ArmadaBC]

You can't really assign a single reason as to why the U.S. system is comparativley expensive but if you actually look at what the money goes to the primary difference between socialized healthcare and our system is that far less money is spent on administration in a nonprofit system. Generally speaking this is due to the simple fact that HMOs and shit make more money when they don't pay for services or pay less, and figuring all that crap out takes people and time. The HMO is essentially dead as almost all new workers with a choice go PPO, this will probably only increase admin costs.


P.S. Michael Moore is a fat fuck

[woodstocksez]

P.S. Michael Moore is a fat fuck

The rest of the previous post was confusing, so, for clarity and to help others, I decided to distill the post to its essence.

You're welcome.

[stupendous man]

Quote:
How does society progress? How do you gauge different degrees of civilization? The one with police and fire departments would seem to be further along than the one without. If another has police, fire, and public education -- well..... Is health care not one of these steps?
That's a matter of debate. Some would say yes, others would say no. I say no.

MP - that is some cruel shit. Capitalism, taken to its extreme like this, is as cold hearted and inhumane as fascism or communism. your views won't change until the coin is turned on you, unfortunately.

[AKA]

Health care is not a right. It is a privilege.

Im only going to say this once, you are a complete fucking idiot.

[PNWbrit]

Im only going to say this once, you are a complete fucking idiot.

Rerun.....



Jong

[Buster Highmen]

I just love Michael Moore, simply because he gets so deeply and irritatingly under the right wing assholes skin. It's great.

[summit]

I just love Michael Moore, simply because he gets so deeply and irritatingly under the right wing assholes skin. It's great.

Don't be a moron.

That's like a right winger loving Ann Coulter just because she pisses off left wingers.

Both Ann and Michael are pompous douchebags.

[PNWbrit]

Don't be a moron.

That's like a right winger loving Ann Coulter just because she pisses off left wingers.

Both Ann and Michael are pompous douchebags.

I see exactly what you mean Buster.

[Buster Highmen]

Both Ann and Michael are pompous douchebags.

And you're a whiney assed fuckwit.

[MeatPuppet]

Hey. MeatPuppet- FUCK YOU. Come back when you are told at the age of 28 you have cancer, are working two part time jobs in lieu of full time, and have no health insurance.

I would hope, that if I found myself in that position, I would not begin creating rights that don't exist simply because I would benefit from them. I like to think that I would stay consistent to what I believe now. But I have never been there so I don't know.

I have spent enough time in hospital waiting rooms to last me a lifetime. I have known many, far too many, people who have died from cancer(and others who have fought it and are winning). Some of them I was very close to. A few of them were close family members. I have watched things progress so far that the surgeons have had to start cutting away parts of their body in a desperate attempt to save them. They never once believed that they were entitled to the care they were getting. They never once believed that the people who were trying to save their live were obligated to give their expertise to them.

Are you telling me that because at that time in my life I was experiencing a rut economically I should not have been given access to health cae because I couldn't afford it? By your reasoning, I should be dead right now.

No, I am saying that neither you, nor I, have any right to expect it. I know an anesthesiologist who pays over $100,000 a year in liability insurance. I know an ER doctor who has similarly high insurance costs, and you are telling me that these guys who have families, are obligated to give their services to you(for free or a reduced rate) simply because you get sick? Sorry, the world does not work that way.

Now, that being said, both of these guys would bend over backwards to help you. The ER doc especially. He is one of the kindest, gentlest people I have ever know. His whole purpose in life is to help people.

So when someone says that they have a right to health care, it's not some massive generic system I hear them talking about, it's the doctors and nurses I know and their livelihood that you are saying they don't have a right to.

However, I also believe ha everyone as a fundamental right to their services.

At what point in their medical training do they lose control over their time and choices?

If criminals are constitutionaly guaraunted the right to an attorney, give me one good reason (besides you libertarian BS philosophy) why a sick person shuld not be garuneed the right to see a doctor?

The Government is a system constructed by people to be fair and just. Nature is not, nor do we have any hope of making it so. Before the government can deprive a person of a recognized right(life, liberty, pursuit of happiness) they have to provide that person with the means to defend themselves, if they are not able to do it themselves.

When you or I get sick, nobody has deprived us of any recognized right, so the government is under no obligation to provide us with a possible remedy.

From another angle, if the government had made you sick, they would be obligated to provide you with medical care. They didn't, so they don't.



I have more sympathy for your fight than you know. But regardless of how much I might support you in this, I don't believe that you have a right to somebody else's expertise; expertise they spent decades acquiring.

[Benny Profane]

OK, that's it, you really are an idiot. Who types a lot.

[MeatPuppet]

MP - that is some cruel shit. Capitalism, taken to its extreme like this, is as cold hearted and inhumane as fascism or communism.

Nothing is being taken to an extreme. History did not start when you started paying attention to it. The world did not spring into existence when you, I and everybody we know were born. For most of human history, access to those with medical training was something that was not widely available. Please tell me, at what point did it become a right? Is something a "right" just because we want it to be? If enough people in a society decide that they have a right to something that a group of people have, is it OK for that society to simply go and take it because they want it? To change the rules for one group of people and make them obligated to the rest of society? Is this really the kind of world you want to live in?

your views won't change until the coin is turned on you, unfortunately.

You have no idea what I have experienced.