The Official Gun Control Debate thread

[Snowy Wintergarden]

I brought up this question in the Va shooting thread and was asked to make a seperate thread, so here it is.

I wanted to know why some Americans feel so strongly about gun ownership.
I don't necessarily want to debate the ancient "right to bear arms" thing - because that doesn't explain why people feel strongly about it.

40-some people were just shot and people like P McPoser accuse reporters of "politicizing" the shooting by asking about gun control.

When you compare gun deaths per capita in the US against gun deaths per capita in other countries...well, isn't obvious there's a problem in the US?

I'm not criticizing, I'm confused. Obviously there's a cultural component to gun ownership in the US I'm unaware of - if someone could fill me in on that I'd be thankful.

[Rontele]

[inserts cliched statement about popping pop corn, cracking open beer and sitting back to watch/]

[leroy jenkins]

Compare the number of gun deaths in the US per capita with the number of gun deaths per capita of any other country. You really think there's not a problem with guns in the US?

Compare the stats of all violent crime in the US to that of other developed countries. It really isn't about guns.

Anyone whos taken an into to sociology course could be able to tell you that the availability of a firearm is not something that would motivate someone to do this. Its a bigger problem than gun control.

Theres a problem with violence in the US, not guns.

[Crass3000]

Despite all the excitement and shootings, gun violence isn't that bad in the states -- I guess that's relative though. But owning a gun doesn't make you likely to shoot anybody. In fact, statistically a person who owns a gun is MUCH more likely to kill themselves than they are anybody else.

Adding the fact that criminals will have guns anyway makes a pretty good case for allowing gun ownership. I personally don't want a gun but I think it's great if somebody else wants to as long as they know how to use it responsibly.

Edit: In Minnesota it is pretty easy to get a conceal and carry permit for a handgun. I like the fact that criminals have no idea who is carrying a handgun -- they have to think twice about whether the person they are about to assault/rob has something on their side that might even the odds.

[soul_skier]

my thoughts on gun control are simple, I personally do not want guns in my house, but I will defend the right of others to have guns. As long as you keep a trigger lock and/or gun safe and are educated upon its use, saftey and upkeep, I have no problem with it. I think we should keep guns out of the hands of psychos, but I am comfortable admitting that I have no idea how to obtain this goal.

[The AD]

Obviously there's a cultural component to gun ownership in the US I'm unaware of - if someone could fill me in on that I'd be thankful.

People like to own guns. People like to shoot guns. Unfortunately guns also can be used to kill people. Guess that about sums it up.

[Cliff Huckable]

Compare the stats of all violent crime in the US to that of other developed countries. It really isn't about guns.

Anyone whos taken an into to sociology course could be able to tell you that the availability of a firearm is not something that would motivate someone to do this. Its a bigger problem than gun control.

Theres a problem with violence in the US, not guns.

But when people get angry/violent and they have a gun at hand, the damage and death are so much worse, no?

And what do you mean there's a violence problem here? Isn't there quite a bit of violence in England, too? But they don't have guns, so you don't get the murder rate, no?

[P_McPoser]

Well summarized AD

[Cliff Huckable]

People like to own guns. People like to shoot guns. Unfortunately guns also can be used to kill people. Guess that about sums it up.

That doesn't sum it up at all. By "people" you mean "Americans".

Address why Americans, and not other people, like to own guns and you'll be answering the question.

[Blurred]

Gun control means using two hands.

[irul&ublo]

And what do you mean there's a violence problem here? Isn't there quite a bit of violence in England, too?

BAN SOCCER!!!!

[telepariah]

Because the right to bear arms is guaranteed by the Second Amendment to our Constitution.
Because this nation was built by people who had to be armed to protect themselves from the others who were armed. We saw it in the movies.
Because if you outlaw guns, only criminals will have guns.
Because we need guns to protect ourselves from our government.
Because there are so many guns out there already it is impossible to control them.
Because the guns themselves are not evil. People kill people.

and most of all...

Because we want our freedom unfettered by responsibility or obligation. If my gun is bigger than your gun, I am a bigger man and that is what counts.

[snowburns]

People like to own guns. People like to shoot guns. Unfortunately guns also can be used to kill people. Guess that about sums it up.

I like a good sharp steak knife, makes for cutting the steak much easier. People get stabbed all the time and no one tries outlaw knives. It's just so much easier for the bastards to blame guns. Like Leroy said, it's a violence issue, not a gun issue.

[P_McPoser]

Padded Room Thread is a little more lively, Snowy, wanna delete this one?

[Nitro]

Gun control does not work. A ban is only a ban if the criminals can't aquire a firearm as well. So, all a strong gun control law does is keep the law abiting citizen the ability from protecting themselves. Gun control is like tobacco, it is a popular idea for politicians to rally behind with no real emphasis on the real problem which is societies' problem of growing violence. These shootings happen all over the world. They happen in Germany (with very strict regs on firearms) and they happen here. Unless you can disarm the entire world, firearms are a necessary evil. So, how do we change peoples motives from using them for such sensless acts?

[Cyber Cop]

I'm practicing with both hands. Pardon me while I sneeze.

[BigAirSkier1580]

As I stated in the other thread...

You think someone who wants to murder someone is going to be concerned that they violated the law and had a firearm illegally?

Hah.

[Crass3000]

That doesn't sum it up at all. By "people" you mean "Americans".

Address why Americans, and not other people, like to own guns and you'll be answering the question.

I guess you summed it all up... The only logical conclusion is that Americans like to kill people. What's so wrong with that?

[Snowy Wintergarden]

BAN SOCCER!!!!

There were 2000+ English banned from Euro 2004 and lots of other bans on English, German, and other violent so-called fans. Certain people have been banned for life from all events world-wide.

It might not be perfect, but at least it is a reasonable response to the problem.

Much more effective than doing nothing.

[lemon boy]

Much more effective than doing nothing.

Actually, we ban anyone from owning or posessing a firearm if they have ever comitted a felony.

[spook]

a few interesting perspectives:

The Hidden History of the Second Amendment
By Professor Carl T. Bogus
Roger Williams University School of Law
as published in the U.C. Davis Law Review
http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/hidhist.htm

Synopsis
James Madison wrote the Second Amendment to assure the southern states that Congress would not undermine the slave system by disarming the militia, which were then the principal instruments of slave control throughout the South.
...
Madison's concern, Professor Bogus argues, was not hunting, self-defense, national defense, or resistance to governmental tyranny—but slave control.

The "hidden history" of the Second Amendment is important for two reasons. First, it supports the view that the amendment does not grant individuals a right to keep and bear arms for their own purposes; rather it only protects the right to bear arms within the militia, as defined within the main body of the Constitution, under the joint control of the federal and state governments. At the time, the southern states extensively regulated their militias and prescribed their slave control responsibilities. Second, the hidden history is important because it fundamentally changes how we think about the right to keep and bear arms. The Second Amendment takes on an entirely different complexion when instead of being symbolized by a musket in the hands of the minutemen, it is associated with a musket in the hands of the slave holder.

...

Condaleeza Rice, Slavery and the Second Amendment
http://www.blackcommentator.com/142/...ink_condi.html
...

Second Amendment Rooted in Southern States' Control of Slavery, Academic Experts Say
http://www.vpc.org/press/9805bog.htm

[Snowy Wintergarden]

As I stated in the other thread...

You think someone who wants to murder someone is going to be concerned that they violated the law and had a firearm illegally?

Hah.

That's not the point. If you have a firearm legally, and a guy breaks into your house and steals it, it's now in circulation.

Legal owners of firearms are contributing to the gun problem. And how many people are murdered with legally owned guns?

I still don't see why people feel they NEED guns.

And all this talk about having a gun to "defend yourself" against criminals...that just seems so unrealistic. It sounds like pure Hollywood crap.
I'm sure there have been cases where it has happened but I'm sure the cases where someone has tried it and got killed for their trouble greatly outnumber any successes...not to mention the number of people killed by guns that were once legal, then were stolen.

It is the AVAILABILITY of guns that seems to be the problem in the US, not whether or not they're legal.

I guess the gun industry makes a lot of money therefore has lots of lobbying power...uh...no, I don't want to start a debate on the US lobbying problem!

[Crass3000]

Actually, we ban anyone from owning or posessing a firearm if they have ever comitted a felony.

And hence the conflict... we know most who commit felonies have a problem with following the law -- I would guess most felons would own a gun if they wanted one regardless of the law. So do we just let the criminals have guns? Or do we allow responsible citizens to also have the right to defend themselves, their families, and their property?

[telepariah]

So, how do we change peoples motives from using them for such sensless acts?

I know! I know!

Control what they can see in movies, on TV, and over the interweb. There wasn't much violent crime in the Soviet Union, was there?

[Crass3000]

And all this talk about having a gun to "defend yourself" against criminals...that just seems so unrealistic. It sounds like pure Hollywood crap.

Well I don't know where you live (Canada maybe?) but I've personally had a gun pulled on me more than once. Sure I might not have been hanging around the right people but having a gun pulled on you is not something you would probably enjoy. It's nice to know that people could be armed to protect you even if you couldn't protect yourself.

I'm sure most may not have had that experience but I can assure you it does happen and it's not just "Hollywood crap."

edit: Again... I don't own a gun or even want to but there are reasons people should have the right to if they wish.