Midfat vs. Cross ski, & a quiver question

[Damian Sanders]

You're both wrong, methinks.

Both the PE and the AC line are well regarded on the EC. It's no G4, but the AC4 is it's successor. The G4 is also one of the best all-arounds of all time. It's cap, but it's wood inside there, which makes a huge difference durability wise, as foam is easier to compress than wood.

I think a group hug is in order.

Perhaps, but I never liked the G3/G4 anyway, and the AC4 certainly does not have the rep and track record of the G4.

[dogwonder]

Amongst all this good natured ribbing, I have found some good advice and have been working on my demo list. If one thing is obvious, you guys are passionate about your boards so I'll listen and see what works.

Volkl Allstars
Stormriders (if I can find a place to demo them)
Head IM77
Head IM82

I think that runs a span from mostly hardpack to very versatile. I know nobody mentioned the 77's (and maybe there is a good reason) but it seemed to have a nice shape and looks to be similar construction to the 82 (but I may be misreading the Head website).

[Tony]

A pic of Damian and his friends

[Tony]

Amongst all this good natured ribbing, I have found some good advice and have been working on my demo list.

Volkl Allstars
Stormriders (if I can find a place to demo them)
Head IM77
Head IM82

Oooops, PEs not on the list. Damian, don't get mad. Just breathe, inhale, exhale.

And don't forget the valium. Two pills tonight.


Well done, dogwonder. Seems like a strong list. I still prefer the AC4s over the IM82, but still a solid All-Mountain ski.

And don't worry about PEs, they are just a kiddie park ski.

[dogwonder]

Well done, dogwonder. Seems like a strong list. I still prefer the AC4s over the IM82, but still a solid All-Mountain ski.

May try the AC4's again, but I have ridden them once (not a full demo). They just didn't seem to click but once again didn't get a full workout. We'll see how I do with these four and if it still doesn't feel right, keep searching.

Thanks again all.

[Damian Sanders]

Oooops, PEs not on the list. Damian, don't get mad. Just breathe, inhale, exhale.

And don't forget the valium. Two pills tonight.


Well done, dogwonder. Seems like a strong list. I still prefer the AC4s over the IM82, but still a solid All-Mountain ski.

And don't worry about PEs, they are just a kiddie park ski.

Ok....Tony Baloney, let me go back 25 some-odd posts and show how much of a fool you are. Here is where you fall flat on your face:

You are talking out of your ass.

Volkl's Extended Double Grip construction is AS STRONG as sandwich construction.

I paid 350 for my flat pair.

PE is a soft park ski, no particularly strong for off-piste.

So much for your expert advice.

Sandwich construction skis have a huge range of durablity. Some are very weak, some are very strong, some are average. I couldn't find any claims of strength from Volkl, aside from the edge being very well supported, in reference to edge grip. So basicly you're making that up, or you heard it from a shop or rep or whatever. Your claim holds no water.

From what I've seen out of 6-stars that friends of mine have owned, which have basicly the same construction, they are not particularly durable skis. The G4 was durable, but the AC4 is now an entirely different ski, with different construction. Until proven otherwise, it would be quite reasonable to conclude that the AC4 will not be as durable as the G4.....I would expect it to have "average" durablity. Personally, since I actually live and ski on the east coast, I would not recommend skiing a ski of average durablity "70% off-piste", as you describe below:

And very fine indeed. You need to start talking percentages here. How much groomers and how much off-piste?

From personal experience, this is how it works out (on/off) in the Volkl line:

Allstars: 80/20
AC 3: 50/50
AC 4: 30/70

You can also go Metron, not my first choice (heavy). Anything offpiste above this percentages you're set with the 8800. I am sure other folks here can comment percentages about other brands for an EC All-Mountain Ski.

I wouldn't take any of those skis "off-trail" (including the metron) more than 10% of the time on the east coast, because I would be worried about causing damage to them that could not be easily repaired, such as an edge compression, which is harder to fix on a cap ski.

My point with the public enemy was not that it's compareable to the AC4, but that was enitrely different, and a MUCH better ski for off piste skiing on the east coast for multiple reasons. It's extremely durable - having a thick, hard base, thick edges, and a burly sidewall.....and it has a track record of being durable, as do other similar K2's. Wood core, torsion box...very solid. It's good on ice when tuned. It is PRETTY STIFF, ACTUALLY, with a conventional round-progressive flex pattern similar to the Seth Vicious. It's also very heavy for a 179, and works well with a pretty rearward mount, and a 20m sidecut in the 179 - making it ski big for it's size. It also has a wide, long powder shovel which makes it pretty good in pow for a stiff ski. All this comes together to make a ski that rocks on rough terrain. It is far from being a kid's park ski, I've seen numerous experts in the 180 to 220 lb range rip all sorts of bumps, trees, and powder on the 179, and smaller people on the other lengths. I'm not recomending this to the original poster for what he is looking for, but as an example of what makes a GREAT off piste ski.

To take this even further, please refer to this review of the AC4:

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=38873

What I found interesting:

First reaction, "These are just like fatter, slightly softer version of my old 6*"

Hilarious, eh? So yes, it's basicly a 6-star blown up a bit. 125-82-110, with a 19.5m sidecut in 184. Basicly a wider carving ski that's good on hard or soft snow, but should probably stay on piste most of the time. This might be exactly what the original poster wanted.....however, he already doesn't like them.....alot of people do not like the feel of the 6*, so this is not suprising. There are numerous other great skis out there that are better, and that many people like better, including the im82, stocklis, etc. Skiing Magazine loves to suck Volkl's dick, so your posting that review of the AC4 only makes you look foolish.

So that's it for now. I'll be happy to come back later and romp all over you again, if needed.

PS: "Double Grip" sounds like something you'd do while whacking off (a wackoff move). Don't forget the lube!!!

[Tony]

I couldn't find any claims of strength from Volkl, aside from the edge being very well supported, in reference to edge grip.

So basicly you're making that up, or you heard it from a shop or rep or whatever. Your claim holds no water.

From what I've seen out of 6-stars that friends of mine have owned....

Until proven otherwise, it would be quite reasonable to conclude....

I would expect it to have "average" durablity

No, I haven't heard, seen, expected or concluded anything from what others say of the ski, LIKE YOU DO.

I ACTUALLY OWN THE SKI. So any appreciation of it are more valid coming from my side than yours. AC4 are strong and stiff ski.

It is far from being a kid's park ski, I've seen numerous experts in the 180 to 220 lb range rip all sorts of bumps, trees, and powder on the 179

200lbs "experts" know there are better skis for powder other than 179 Kiddie's park ski. You are living a fantasy. Sorry you stucked with your PEs. Someday you'll stop being a teenager and life will be happier, friendlier and more joyful for you.

I'm not recomending this to the original poster for what he is looking for, but as an example of what makes a GREAT off piste ski.

No, I know you are not recommending PEs to the OP as he is not in need of a kiddie's park ski. BELEIVE OR NOT, YOU'VE RECOMMENDED VOLKL'S AC4!!!!

This is what sad & lonely Damian wrote in Post #7 of this thread:

Others worth looking at would be the elan M777, Head im82 and im88, Volkl AC3/AC4, etc, etc.

Even with their inferior construction and durability you ended recommending AC4s for an all/mountain EC ski, WITHOUT EVEN TRYING THEM. Do you always recommend skis you've never tried?

Ok, time for your valium and back to the straight jacket. No punk rock for you tonight.

[Damian Sanders]

No, I haven't heard, seen, expected or concluded anything from what others say of the ski, LIKE YOU DO.

I ACTUALLY OWN THE SKI. So any appreciation of it are more valid coming from my side than yours. AC4 are strong and stiff ski.

200lbs "experts" know there are better skis for powder other than 179 Kiddie's park ski. You are living a fantasy. Sorry you stucked with your PEs. Someday you'll stop being a teenager and life will be happier, friendlier and more joyful for you.

No, I know you are not recommending PEs to the OP as he is not in need of a kiddie's park ski. BELEIVE OR NOT, YOU'VE RECOMMENDED VOLKL'S AC4!!!!

This is what sad & lonely Damian wrote in Post #7 of this thread:

Even with their inferior construction and durability you ended recommending AC4s for an all/mountain EC ski, WITHOUT EVEN TRYING THEM. Do you always recommend skis you've never tried?

Ok, time for your valium and back to the straight jacket. No punk rock for you tonight.

Sigh.....

All insults and no content. Your reading comprehension skills are poor too. You really are not that fun to argue with, because your points make no sense, and you are full of hot air.

The Public Enemy is exceptionally good in powder considering it's an all mountain twin tip with a stiff flex. That's what makes it so good all around, it rips in so many areas. I never said it was a powder ski, and I don't use it as a powder specific ski. I'm currently in possession of 2 pairs of dedicated powder skis, and 5 pairs of quasi-powder skis. Woop-te-doo.....you're retarded.

I recommended the AC3/4 because he was looking for a midfat ski that was good on ice. There's no question about that. I personally don't like the AC4, or any other Volkl cap skis, going back 5 years. I just don't like how they feel. I know some people like them, and they are a valid choice for on-piste skiing here in the east, thus I recommended he check them out. Once he said he was looking for something that was more geared towards trees, I suggested he look at the im82. I own the im88, and while last years version wasn't all that durable, this years seems beefier. The Im82 is the same construction as this years im88. Regardless, even it you do edge compress a im82/88, it's easy to repair because it's a sidewall ski. I broke mine last year, but before that they never coreshotted, and I had one cracked sidewall that did not result in a bent edge. Considering what I put them through, I would give last years a rating of 6 for durablity on a 1 to 10 scale....I would guess that this years would rate around 7.5, if I choose to beat on it. However, this year I will only ski the im88 about 5% off piste. I would give the PE a 9.5 durablity rating.

Just because the AC4 is stiff, doesn't mean jack shit. All volkls are overly stiff....I'm not a fan. Unless you've seen someone flogg a pair or flogged a pair yourself, you're just guessing on the durablity.......as am I, but at least I'm making an educated guess.

Yawn.......just give it up, you really have nothing to say.

[Tony]

as am I, but at least I'm making an educated guess.

No, just a guess, and a very wild one given your ZERO experience with the ski.

"Educated" guess? If you have clearly stated something in this thread of all things is your total lack of....education.

But don't worry: one day you will stop having acne, being glued to the computer all day, hating your father, masturbating 'cause you can't get laid and listening punk rock music.

Then you will make some real friends. Enjoy your teenage years, kiddo.

[PNW Skier]

I've got the older Stockli stormrider XL's (the red/white/blue ones) in a 185. before I got my goats I used them for everything. They aren't great in pow but they do ok. For anything besides pow they fuckin' rock. If you've got the legs to drive them they'll haul ass everywhere. I've taken them down groomers at blackcomb as fast as I could get them to go and the skis felt rock solid like they had way more speed in them if I had a steeper run.

[Damian Sanders]

No, just a guess, and a very wild one given your ZERO experience with the ski.

"Educated" guess? If you have clearly stated something in this thread of all things is your total lack of....education.

But don't worry: one day you will stop having acne, being glued to the computer all day, hating your father, masturbating 'cause you can't get laid and listening punk rock music.

Then you will make some real friends. Enjoy your teenage years, kiddo.

Yep, I can only guess based on my previous history with other cap skis, and multiple years of reports about a similarly constructed ski, the 6-star. I've heard numerous bad things about the durablity of the 6-star, and typically I would not expect the 6-star to be used by people that are tough on gear.
Even though you own the ski, you have not flogged it, and you probably won't. I'm guessing that 95%+ of the people who buy a AC4 will not beat on it.......because those who do buy it will know better, and those who beat on gear will get something else. Simple. There's no point in saying it's a durable ski, because nobody wants to take the risk and find out....I stand by my analysis.

I have no idea why you would think I'm a teenager. You have no idea who I am or what I do for a living, aside that I like to argue on the internet and ski in the east. I haven't worked in a shop in 10 years, I do all my own tuning and mounts, and I don't take ski advice from magazines. I buy and sell multiple pairs of skis a year, and I'm always looking for the best gear on the market that suits my needs......which is often not the newest and hottest ski. I make my own observations and draw my own conclusions, which is why I'm often in disagreement with the industry line.....but more often than not, my opinons are backed up by other skiers, both here and in real life, since they are based on reality, not marketing.

From what I gather, I'm guessing you are a late teens/early twenties shop rat in a shop out west who has a pretty strong arrogant and know-it-all streak, but is spoon fed all his info from magazines and company reps. You're probably an average skier, and have no real feel for gear or how to test or analyse it in any reasonable level of detail. When you start to really understand ski gear, my posts will make alot more sense to you. Until then, I suggest you shut up and listen, please.

[Tony]

I've heard numerous bad things about the durablity of the 6-star.

I'm guessing that 95%+ of the people....

I can only guess based on....

I'm guessing you are a late teens/early twenties shop rat....

Still hearing that same ole tune out from your ass: "I've heard", "it looks like", "my friend did this and that" and "I'm guessing that" seem to be your favorites.

I can only guess based on....multiple years of reports about a similarly constructed ski, the 6-star.

If I am not wrong the 6-star was on the market for a season or two, then replaced by the Allstar. What multiple years are you talking about? SHOW HARD DATA.

my opinons are backed up by other skiers, both here and in real life, since they are based on reality.

Really? "Based on reality"? What reality is that? You said yourself you never even sniffed an AC4. AGAIN, you are living a fantasy you call REALITY. BTW, I don't read many people around here backing up your teenage crying rants.



I can't care how old you are.

By your posting and (lack of) empathy towards others in this website, you are still a teenager....kiddo. And quite a lonely arrogant one too.

[Staggerwing]

Since you already have a Legend, you might want to try another Dynastar.

Look at the Contact 11, this years model; last years was a different ski, even though the name is the same.

[Damian Sanders]

Still hearing that same ole tune out from your ass: "I've heard", "it looks like", "my friend did this and that" and "I'm guessing that" seem to be your favorites.

If I am not wrong the 6-star was on the market for a season or two, then replaced by the Allstar. What multiple years are you talking about? SHOW HARD DATA.

Really? "Based on reality"? What reality is that? You said yourself you never even sniffed an AC4. AGAIN, you are living a fantasy you call REALITY. BTW,

I don't read many people around here backing up your teenage crying rants.
I can't care how old you are.

By your posting and (lack of) empathy towards others in this website, you are still a teenager....kiddo. And quite a lonely arrogant one too.

Yawn........again you really have nothing to say. Please excuse me for not taking a detailed interest in Volkl's carving skis like the 6*.....I'm too busy concerning myself with real ski gear. I've demoed about 5 pairs of volkl cap skis over the years, and thought they all sucked. Why should I think the AC4 will be any better?

Hard Data? Right. You have no hard data either. Why would I waste my time doing detailed testing on a type/brand/construction of ski that I think skis like crap? Makes no sense. I have enough data to draw a pretty accurate conclusion, and I have. I'm satisfied with my conculsion, and I offer it as my own opinion on the subject. You don't have to agree. I'm not here to test skis for you or anybody else, but I freely offer my opinions, which are based on personal experience, observation and other 2nd hand reports.

I'm quite sure at this point that you work for a shop that sells alot of volkl and you are a Volkl fanboy.

[Tony]

Please excuse me for not taking a detailed interest in Volkl's carving skis like the 6*.....I'm too busy concerning myself with real ski gear.

Like what, kiddie park skis! HAHAHA LOL

Hard Data? Right. You have no hard data either..

I don't need it. I own the ski. You....are still second guessing and talking out of your ass.

I have enough data to draw a pretty accurate conclusion, and I have. I'm satisfied with my conculsion, and I offer it as my own opinion on the subject...

So, you have never tried the ski and what you offer as YOUR opinion is SOMEONE'S ELSE analysis of it. And your satisfied with it. Hmmm....good to know for all the maggots around here what's your m.o. for recommending a ski.

You are a Volkl fanboy.

Guilty, but....



Most people around here are Volkl fanboys.

Be careful.

Other maggots are reading these too.

[seldon]

Honestly, shut the fuck up.

[PNWbrit]

Honestly, shut the fuck up.

2nded

[kindergarten argument]my opinion about skis is soooo much betterer than yours[/kindergarten argument]

Tony - how about you do us all a favor and try posting in a tech talk thread without it ending in an argument? That's what the war/politics/religon threads are for. Try searching for some of upallnight's posts for an object lesson in how to share your knowledge without getting on everyones tits.

Thanks.

Jong

[Damian Sanders]

........more smokescreen action.....

I've already trounced you here, all you have is BS and smokescreen to spew to keep your dignity intact......sigh.

It's perfectly reasonable to recommend a ski without having skied it. I wouldn't endorse a ski without skiing it or something similar in the lineup or having a very good feel for the brand......but there is nothing wrong with recommending that someone check out a ski.

How about this - please enlighten all of us as to why YOU think the AC4 is a great ski or one of the best on the market, and please let us know your skiing background and how you have the ski set up. Your size, ablity, skiing background, what kind of bindings are on the ski, what size is the ski, and why did you choose it. PLEASE, I'm asking nicely.

[PNWbrit]

blahblahblah

Same goes for you.

[Tony]

Shit.

I am sorry, your majesty.

I was having fun with the rad core park kid.

Don't meant to mess your cup 'o tea time.

[Tony]

It's perfectly reasonable to recommend a ski without having skied it......there is nothing wrong with recommending that someone check out a ski.

Yes, but you didn't do that. You BASHED a ski without having even ski in it, kiddo.

Different strokes.

[Damian Sanders]

Yes, but you didn't do that. You BASHED a ski without having even ski in it, kiddo.

Different strokes.

Again, learn how to read and comprehend better. Please.

I'm BASHING an ENTIRE section of a brand's lineup, the whole group. I, DAMIAN SANDERS, THINK ALL VOLKL CAP SKIS SUCK DONKEY BALLS - I DO NOT LIKE THE FEEL, AND I THINK THERE ARE MORE DURABLE SKIS OUT THERE. There, are you happy now? That's my opinion.

You can call me a park rat all you want, but the fact is I'm not a park rat, and you sound like a moron.

And no, I did not bash the AC4 directly. I honesty recommended the guy check it out, and I offered my opinions on it's durablity. I have made no comment on how it skis, aside from that I don't like the feel of volkl caps, and that I thought it would be effective on ice. He might like it, really. Stop putting words in my mouth, it's like you can't read.

AGAIN: LET'S HEAR YOUR PERSONAL DETAILED EXPEREINCE WITH THE AC4.

[Tony]

I'm BASHING an ENTIRE section of a brand's lineup, the whole group. I, DAMIAN SANDERS, THINK ALL VOLKL CAP SKIS SUCK DONKEY BALLS - I DO NOT LIKE THE FEEL, AND I THINK THERE ARE MORE DURABLE SKIS OUT THERE. There, are you happy now?

I am plenty happy

OTOH, you don't sound very happy.

AC4 review for you? what for? You only ride kiddie park skis...

[seldon]

...

AGAIN: LET'S HEAR YOUR PERSONAL DETAILED EXPEREINCE WITH THE AC4.

Personally, I'd rather not.

[Damian Sanders]

I am plenty happy

OTOH, you don't sound very happy.

AC4 review for you? what for? You only ride kiddie park skis...

Somehow, I doubt you even own a pair of AC4's at this point. If so, they are probably 170's or 177's....I doubt you own a 191. Again, post up a review.....heck, not even a review, just stats on your setup. Please. Pictures too.

The 179 PE is the smallest ski I own. You must have missed it where I posted in this thread that I'm also skiing 186 Im88's with s916's......are those kiddy park skis? How about my 3 pairs of stocklis? P+? Axioms? Ak Launchers? The '07 big daddy's I haven't mounted yet? Wow, I didn't know they were all park skis!!!!

You want pics? Because I can certainly produce pics.....