Midfat vs. Cross ski, & a quiver question

[Tony]

Funny you think that.

The Unlimited line was designed specially for the EC/Euro groomer skier that wants to also ski in the sidecountry.

No durability problems with my AC4s....yet.

[Damian Sanders]

Funny you think that.

The Unlimited line was designed specially for the EC/Euro groomer skier that wants to also ski in the sidecountry.

No durability problems with my AC4s....yet.

I know what they are, you've hit the nail right on the head. Basicly skis for a groomer/carver skier that wants something that will also be good in soft snow.....east or west. That's a perfectly valid section of the market - I'm using the im88 for that spot in my quiver.

That's entirely different than an "all around east coast ski", that's going to see a considerable amount of abuse in the woods and on thin cover. From the looks of them, I could pretty easily destroy a pair of AC3/4's in a half day of agressive skiing. I'm sure they are a good ski, just not something I would choose to ski off piste with on the east coast with on a regular basis.

Different strokes for different folks.......

[Tony]

Well, I can destroy any ski in thin cover too if that's your point.

The fact that you discredit Volkl AC3/4 durability for its "look" is not very comforting.

Go out and try them.

[falou]

Second the fact that skis under 75 waist are just too limiting. Sure they rail great on the groomers, but when the groomers get chopped up or you want to take them off piste, they get knocked around too much, not worth it. A stiffer 75-80+ ski might not quite match a narrower ski for pure carving, but they still are damn good and more versatile.

[Damian Sanders]

Well, I can destroy any ski in thin cover too if that's your point.

The fact that you discredit Volkl AC3/4 durability for its "look" is not very comforting.

Go out and try them.

It's basicly a cosmetic cap torsion box ski. I'm not comfortable with that type of ski's durablity. Particularly edge compressions, as the edge does not look well supported. They also have softer bases and thinner edges. Thus, you need to take it easy on them in the trees. I'm not going to buy a $700 ski and perform "destructive testing" on it, when I already know what's going to happen. They might be fine for a while, but you also might shank a rock and blow the edge, where another ski might hold better.

If indeed this ski will be mostly used on ice, the AC3/4 would be fine because he's not going to be abusing them in the trees, to keep the edges sharp. The occasional trip through the woods isn't a big deal. But I wouldn't buy that sort of ski if I intened to ski them "off-trail" more than 10% of the time. To say the AC4 is a 50% off-piste ski does not apply to the east coast, where off-piste means ROCKS.

And it's not that I "can" destroy a ski on thin cover, it's that "do" the type ski that destroys skis rather quickly. Thus, I ski a public enemy that can stand up to the abuse, as my "off-piste" ski..........as do hundreds of other eastern skiers.

[Tony]

It's basicly a cosmetic cap torsion box ski. I'm not comfortable with that type of ski's durablity. Particularly edge compressions, as the edge does not look well supported. They also have softer bases and thinner edges. Thus, you need to take it easy on them in the trees. I'm not going to buy a $700 ski and perform "destructive testing" on it, when I already know what's going to happen. They might be fine for a while, but you also might shank a rock and blow the edge, where another ski might hold better.

If indeed this ski will be mostly used on ice, the AC3/4 would be fine because he's not going to be abusing them in the trees, to keep the edges sharp. The occasional trip through the woods isn't a big deal. But I wouldn't buy that sort of ski if I intened to ski them "off-trail" more than 10% of the time. To say the AC4 is a 50% off-piste ski does not apply to the east coast, where off-piste means ROCKS.

And it's not that I "can" destroy a ski on thin cover, it's that "do" the type ski that destroys skis rather quickly. Thus, I ski a public enemy that can stand up to the abuse, as my "off-piste" ski..........as do hundreds of other eastern skiers.

You are talking out of your ass.

Volkl's Extended Double Grip construction is AS STRONG as sandwich construction.

I paid 350 for my flat pair.

PE is a soft park ski, no particularly strong for off-piste.

So much for your expert advice.

[Damian Sanders]

You are talking out of your ass.

Volkl's Extended Double Grip construction is AS STRONG as sandwich construction.

I paid 350 for my flat pair.

PE is a soft park ski, no particularly strong for off-piste.

So much for your expert advice.

Oh, my, fucking, god..................you've probably never touched a PE, let alone skied one, or abused a pair. It's probably THE SINGLE BEST ALL AROUND EAST COAST OFF PISTE SKI ON THE MARKET, DUMBASS.

It makes the AC4 look like gaper crap......

Double-grip? That's a wackoff move, for sure. There's a reason all the freeskiing and race models use the traditional volkl construction....because it doesn't suck.

[Tony]

"my fucking god, dumbass, gaper crap, wackoff move"????

Hmmmm....by your extensive vocabulary I guess you must be right in everything....



















Not. Still talking out of your ass, kiddo.

[Damian Sanders]

"my fucking god"????

Still talking out of your ass, kiddo.

I think you're just pissed off you bought a glorified gaper carving ski. Boo hoo. Very few people take the AC3/4 seriously.....sorry. There are better choices in the volkl lineup - specifically the Karma and Mantra.

Oh, and BTW, there are plenty of sandwich skis out there that are not durable at all.........

[Tony]

I think you feel lonely, angry and miserable.....even with PEs in your quiver.

[Tony]

And regarding how serioulsy people take AC4s:

"Volkl Men's AC4 Titanium Ski with integrated 12.0 Piston Binding dominated the One-Ski Quiver Expert Category in Skiing Magazine's 2006-2007 Gear Guide ("Our hands-down favorite of the category.").

This versatile ski eludes simplistic classification. While Ski Magazine gave the AC4 a Gold Medal in 2006 for their wide ride Freeride XL category this year's Ski Magazine Buyer's Guide noted that it was the best soft snow performer in their All Mountain Expert Freeride category.

How good is this ski? When Ski Magazine broke down the highest scores in their All Mountain Expert Freeride category this year the Volkl AC4 Titanium was the only men's ski that had three top scores above 4.0 including a remarkable 4.4 rating for Long Turns (we're confident that this is the highest score in the Ski Magazine Buyer's Guide but we're still waiting for the ink to dry on the magazine)."

http://www.skinet.com/skinet/gear/ap...nLimit=top%5F5

[Damian Sanders]

I think you feel lonely, angry and miserable.....even with PEs in your quiver.

Dude, what's with the personal attacks? You obviously are out of your depth here. Only thing making me angry is people on the internet spewing BS.

You have classic buyers love for the product. You bought shiny new Volkls and think they are the tits. They are a great ski for sure. I'm sure they ski great. Sweet, I am extremely happy for you, I'm glad you are on a ski that you like. Heck, they might even be a good choice for the original poster!!!!

Consider this though. Volkl offers GS and SL "race stock" skis that are basicly direct derivatives of real world cup skis. They also offer about a half dozen "freeride" skis. Now, what kind of construction are they using? Volkl's best, the high tech double grip? NO!!! They are using traditional volkl construction, because if volkl made race skis and freeride skis with a cap, people WOULD NOT TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY, and people wouldn't buy them. End of story.

When you are ready to upgrade, look for a sidewall ski...until then enjoy the AC4's.

[Damian Sanders]

And regarding how serioulsy people take AC4s:

"Volkl Men's AC4 Titanium Ski with integrated 12.0 Piston Binding dominated the One-Ski Quiver Expert Category in Skiing Magazine's 2006-2007 Gear Guide ("Our hands-down favorite of the category.").

This versatile ski eludes simplistic classification. While Ski Magazine gave the AC4 a Gold Medal in 2006 for their wide ride Freeride XL category this year's Ski Magazine Buyer's Guide noted that it was the best soft snow performer in their All Mountain Expert Freeride category.

How good is this ski? When Ski Magazine broke down the highest scores in their All Mountain Expert Freeride category this year the Volkl AC4 Titanium was the only men's ski that had three top scores above 4.0 including a remarkable 4.4 rating for Long Turns (we're confident that this is the highest score in the Ski Magazine Buyer's Guide but we're still waiting for the ink to dry on the magazine)."

http://www.skinet.com/skinet/gear/ap...it=top%5F5

Whew!!!!!!!

I just had a seizure because I was laughing so hard. I literally shit and peed all over myself. Thank god they were able to get me to stop convulsing.......WOW!

PS: Wow. Just.....WOW......

PPS: Thanks for proving my point. My work here is done. Enjoy the skis!!!!

[Tony]

Consider this though. Volkl offers GS and SL "race stock" skis that are basicly direct derivatives of real world cup skis. They also offer about a half dozen "freeride" skis. Now, what kind of construction are they using? Volkl's best, the high tech double grip? NO!!! They are using traditional volkl construction, because if volkl made race skis and freeride skis with a cap, people WOULD NOT TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY, and people wouldn't buy them. End of story.

When you are ready to upgrade, look for a sidewall ski...until then enjoy the AC4's.

Still talking out your ass

Volkl GS Racing Titanium and SL Racing are cap construction with Extended Double Grip.

The winningest brand in the WC nowadays is Atomic and their racing skis are all....cap construction.


P.S. 1: I have MANY sandwich skis.

P.S. 2: Still think you are a lonely and angry person. This is not a personal attack, just the image you project in your posts. Dumbass is a personal attack, douchebag.

[Tony]

I literally shit and peed all over myself.

Not good.

Might want to check a proctologist.

Or stop using that dildo....or how was that you called it? My fucking god.

[Damian Sanders]

Still talking out your ass

Volkl GS Racing Titanium and SL Racing are cap construction with Extended Double Grip.

The winningest brand in the WC nowadays is Atomic and their racing skis are all....cap construction.

I'm sorry, I can't argue with someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

The models you refer to are the "consumer" race models. The real race skis volkl offers to the public are tagged as "race stock", right on the volkl website, I just looked.....they are traditional volkl "power" construction, as are WC skis. (wood core torsion box with metal layers - titanium or titanal)

Atomic went back to pretty much all sandwich construction on their SL and GS race skis a couple years ago (with a light cosmetic cap). They were never really a cap ski in the first place, I would not classify Beta construction as a cap aside from in casual conversation. The speed skis have always been sandwich. They now have sandwich freeskiing skis too. The major difference here is that atomic's non-sidewall skis are actually pretty good - the big daddy has quite a following.

Are you done yet? Or do I need to keep correcting you?

[Damian Sanders]

You are talking out of your ass.

Volkl's Extended Double Grip construction is AS STRONG as sandwich construction.

I should not have stated that Double Grip is a "cosmetic cap torsion box ski". I really have no idea what's inside of it, since I can't find a crossection.

However, I have seen the insides of enough of volkl's other high-end cap efforts to not be impressed........I am inclined to believe they are offering more of the same.

[Damian Sanders]

Bingo:

EXTENDED DOUBLE GRIP
The latest development in Völkl's signature Double Grip constructions, Extended Double Grip brings yet another leap forward in performance. The extra wood core in each chamber now extends from tip to tail, providing more uniform grip, and allowing an even better balance between torsional and longitudinal flex. The most efficient construction Völkl has ever created is found on the new Racetigers and the new Allstar flagship in the Supersport series.

Our highest performance models feature the Sensorwood Core (PICTURE) Consisting of vertically laminated sections of Poppel wood, Sensorwood cores are CNC milled to incredible precision. Völkl produces our own wood cores to ensure perfect consistency and quality. This illustration shows a Sensorwood Core in a Double Grip configuration - note the two wood chambers above the regular core.

From:

http://www.volkl.com/ski_05/ski_tech.html

NOW........I would call that a structural cap ski, 100%. Just like a salomon....and we all know how durable salomons are. It does look like there could be a considerable amount of fiberglass above the edge, however, it does not look well supported, aside from it being part of the cap. Inconclusive as far as durablity goes. This construction is used on the 6-star, and thus, I want nothing to do with it.........I have skied the consumer p60 SC with the same construction and thought it pretty much felt like crap. Sorry.

If you want, I can borrow your pair and do some durablity testing....a few 5-10 footers to flat thin cover landings should tell the story...........

[Tony]

Still talking out of your ass.

Beta is Atomic cap technology.

Double Grip is Volkl Cap technology.

So the point STILL is the winningest brand (Atomic) in the last 10-years of WC GS and SL is cap construction.

Speed events who the fuck cares? Most groomers skis are based in GS and SL models, not 220cm Downhill planks.

Are you going to keep talking out of your ass for long?

FWIW, sandwich construction is more durable but that doesn't take anything of the AC4 as an excellent allrounder for EC/Euro groomer skiing. PE is still a park ski.

[Damian Sanders]

Still talking out of your ass.

Beta is Atomic cap technology.

Double Grip is Volkl Cap technology.

So the point STILL is the winningest brand (Atomic) in the last 10-years of WC GS and SL is cap construction.

Speed events who the fuck cares? Most groomers skis are based in GS and SL models, not 220cm Downhill planks.

Are you going to keep talking out of your ass for long?

FWIW, sandwich construction is more durable but that doesn't take anything of the AC4 as an excellent allrounder for EC/Euro groomer skiing. PE is still a park ski.

Are you sure you're not uncle crud? Because you are such a fucking moron I can't even stand it.

Even after Atomic's success, with beta on the WC race skis, they still dropped it. It's the best quasi-cap on the market, but they still dropped it. Are you getting the picture??? Hell, I like atomic caps, and bought the new '07 big daddy!!!!

The Public Enemy, straight from the K2 website....sounds like a GREAT east coast ski to me........

A truly lethal tool designed for the park and anywhere else you want to venture. This ski is built with a stiffer Triaxial braided wood core thus giving it strength to withstand the toughest of landings and the confidence and stability to rip any terrain. Equally at home in the park as it is in crud or the steeps, the PE is a menace to society and your mind that will lead you on a man hunt to discover which way is up on its op-art topsheet.

Dimensions: 118/85/109
Target Performance: High Performance All-Mountain Pipe and Park Twin
Radius: 20m @179
Construction: Torsion Box Sidewall
Core: Fir
Features: Twin Tip, Triaxial Braided Core, ABS Sidewall, Tip and Tail Rivets, 3.5 mm steel Edges
Sizes: 159, 164, 169, 174, 179

[Tony]

Public Enemy = piece of crap New School kiddie quasi-park twin ski.

Gee, I didn't noticed before they only make it in 179. Even the AC4 comes in 191. What I said, PE is kiddie ski.

You = sad, lonely, angry, frustrated, 16-year old who doesn't get laid.

P.S.: Not Uncle Crud, but uncle Tony.

[Damian Sanders]

Public Enemy = piece of crap New School kiddie quasi-park twin ski.

Gee, I didn't noticed before they only make it in 179. Even the AC4 comes in 191. What I said, PE is kiddie ski.

You = sad, lonely, angry, frustrated, 16-year old who doesn't get laid.

P.S.: Not Uncle Crud, but uncle Tony.

Tony, please demo the public enemy some time. It's much better than you give it credit for.

But other than that, you're a lost cause.

[Tony]

Damian,

Please demo the 191 AC4. It's much better than you give it credit for.

But other than that, you are an angry teenager that doesn't get along well with other people.

Be well and take the valium,
Uncle Tony

[schuss]

You're both wrong, methinks.

Both the PE and the AC line are well regarded on the EC. It's no G4, but the AC4 is it's successor. The G4 is also one of the best all-arounds of all time. It's cap, but it's wood inside there, which makes a huge difference durability wise, as foam is easier to compress than wood.

I think a group hug is in order.

[Damian Sanders]

Damian,

Please demo the 191 AC4. It's much better than you give it credit for.

But other than that, you are an angry teenager that doesn't get along well with other people.

Be well and take the valium,
Uncle Tony

Fuck off asshat. What fucking hole did you crawl out of?????

100+ plus posts, all in tech talk. Joined last month. Let me spell it out for you:

J-O-N-G

You actually own a 191 AC4...riiight.

Ok, what kind of binders are on it? How about some pics????