z12 toe piece

**jfost** · 11-30-2006, 01:08 PM

seeking confirmation that the z12 toe is 3 screws only - like the quadrax toe of old...

4 mounting points like the driver toe seems more secure to me, in that the ultimate pull-out strength would be 33% higher for the entire toe (unlikely I know since all screws dont usually fail). What other bindings have only 3 screws in the toepiece?!?

**pechelman** · 11-30-2006, 02:01 PM

jfrost, depending on the bolt pattern, it may not have that significant an effect.

Think on a normal solly toe
two bolts here - tip of the boot here - two bolts here - toe wing contact here

The only pull out force is from a backward fall or an upward force applied by the boot toe at the tip and toe wing contact points. Those front two bolts dont do much more than resolve lateral forces and a wee bit of vertical force. And I thought it did have 4 bolts, but more of a diamond pattern than a box pattern.

edit: nevermind, 3 bolts
see post 82 for more detail http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...+light+salomon

**Arty50** · 11-30-2006, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by jfost

What other bindings have only 3 screws in the toepiece?!?

IIRC, Look/Rossi consumer bindings.

**weibo** · 11-30-2006, 03:08 PM

Also see Markers.

**jfost** · 11-30-2006, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by pechelman

jfrost, depending on the bolt pattern, it may not have that significant an effect.

Think on a normal solly toe
two bolts here - tip of the boot here - two bolts here - toe wing contact here

The only pull out force is from a backward fall or an upward force applied by the boot toe at the tip and toe wing contact points. Those front two bolts dont do much more than resolve lateral forces and a wee bit of vertical force.

good point pechelman,

there are still two screws resisting the upward force... the only thing I could see a problem, and it is kind of a big one, is that the lateral force would seem to be missing a screw out wide to resist motion - and ultimately pull out! Though, these bindings do test "stiffer" laterally than the driver toe!?!

I have for sure NEVER come close to ripping out binding screws, so I don't think I'd have a problem - but I do appreciate proper engineering to resist forces, and it seems to me that a box or other trapezoidal shape comprised of 4 screws would resist pitch, yaw and roll more soundly than a triangular configuration of fasteners...

edit: thanks for the link to that thread - I guess there IS some info there after all, I couldn't get past the in-fighting of the 1st couple of pages...

**pechelman** · 11-30-2006, 04:05 PM

Which do you need more, a safety factor of 4 or 3?
They'll still both get the job done, one just has more redundant weight.

Dont worry about torquing the toe, youve got a large baseplate to resolve those torques, and the amount of force your DIN setting will allow you to apply is also not that high. The same thing applies to the bolts in a torsionally applied force. You're pulling up on one fastener and pushing down with the bidning on the other side, so essentially the other fastener is just along for the ride. Furthermore, two of the bolts are placed appropriately with relationship to where the torques are applied, so the torque doesnt have to "travel" very far along the binding before it gets resolved.

Stresses are higher on each fastener, but if they're still within an allowable limit, who cares? Also when was the last time you heard massive reports of people pulling out marker, look, rossi, and whatever other 3 bolt toes?

The argument also exists that with more holes in a ski, you now have more places for a crack to propagate.

**jfost** · 11-30-2006, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by pechelman

Stresses are higher on each fastener, but if they're still within an allowable limit, who cares? Also when was the last time you heard massive reports of people pulling out marker, look, rossi, and whatever other 3 bolt toes?

The argument also exists that with more holes in a ski, you now have more places for a crack to propagate.

I'll buy these two points!!!

Like I said, I for sure haven't ever ripped out even 1 binding screw so I'm not anticipating any trouble...

so in going with the z12's I can also say that I have a 7/8ths chance of fouling a screw hole vs. 9xx's !!!

**pechelman** · 11-30-2006, 04:20 PM

cool

now if the toe wings explode, dont blame me

looking forward to hear an intial and long term report

**Flexon Phil** · 12-01-2006, 07:05 AM

Looking and playing with this new toe, I was unimpressed. It seems very plasticy. I will wait to see how this holds up over time, for now I will stay with my Driver toes.

Squatch · 12-01-2006, 07:52 AM

look/rossi has four holes, at least for the past 4 years or so, maybe more.

**GapersGoHome** · 12-01-2006, 11:05 AM

Yeah, i wouldn't be stoked on the hollow wings, either...

**wildstyle** · 12-01-2006, 11:40 AM

I am still decidedly underwhelmed with the z12 toepice. Its just an uprated quadrax binder with longer wings.

z12 ....

c610

I for one will not be getting a set of these as i percieve them to be an example of manufacturer product line consolidation based on which one is cheaper to produce, not which one is better.

997's all the way.

**summit** · 12-01-2006, 11:44 AM

I handled Z12s in the store... the wings are much longer and seem burlier than the C series.

I have a pair on order so we'll see how it works out.

**jfost** · 12-01-2006, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by wildstyle

I am still decidedly underwhelmed with the z12 toepice. Its just an uprated quadrax binder with longer wings.

I for one will not be getting a set of these as i percieve them to be an example of manufacturer product line consolidation based on which one is cheaper to produce, not which one is better.

997's all the way.

I'm going to give 'em a try - worst case, they suck - and I can use 6 of the holes in each ski to mount up a 9xx binding... middle case, they break - and I warranty them for a set of 9xx's and repeat above... best case, they are superlight and stiff, and they rule!

**dorikin** · 12-01-2006, 12:15 PM

3 or 4 screws in the toe piece isn't the issue here, believe me. The issue here is that if you can create enough force to rip out a TOE PIECE (I have ripped out heels, but no toe pieces...) then take my word for it, you will shear those toe wings right off. They suck. Seen it first hand, they crack and break right off. the S9XX series, even the lower end 912 are much better IMO than the Z series bindings.

**skimasterflex** · 12-01-2006, 05:14 PM

I've got the green light from my salomon rep to put it to the test. If I break a Z12 this year he's replacing it with an S914. I'll let everyone know how it goes, it will be on my Kingswood Megafat.

**skimasterflex** · 12-01-2006, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by dorikin69

3 or 4 screws in the toe piece isn't the issue here, believe me. The issue here is that if you can create enough force to rip out a TOE PIECE (I have ripped out heels, but no toe pieces...) then take my word for it, you will shear those toe wings right off. They suck. Seen it first hand, they crack and break right off. the S9XX series, even the lower end 912 are much better IMO than the Z series bindings.

I seriously question the validity of this statement. Have you honestly seen the carbon reinforced Z toe wings break, or are you talking about some older quadrax version? Not enough skiing has been done on these toes to really know either way yet, but you claim first hand experience with them beaking??

**Bandit Man** · 12-02-2006, 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by wildstyle

I am still decidedly underwhelmed with the z12 toepice. Its just an uprated quadrax binder with longer wings.

I for one will not be getting a set of these as i percieve them to be an example of manufacturer product line consolidation based on which one is cheaper to produce, not which one is better.

997's all the way.

Amen!

I remember hearing about the new Sallie's with upward release way back when the first Quadrax came out and that it was going to be all the rage (according to the rep). After seeing it in person I too was unimpressed and thought "What a piece of entry-level sh*t!" Now that they are being marketed as a replacement for the S912 (yeah, the single adjustment wings do blow) I just cannot buy into it. I long for the Sallie line of old with independent toe-wing adjustments, no upward releasing toe and metal in all the right places in a less than DIN 16 race binding.

I for one will new drop coin on the Z12 (aka re-packaged Quadrax)

**skimasterflex** · 12-02-2006, 01:26 AM

The Quadrax was Never marketed or hyped to replace the S series bindings. If we can't have faith in a Salomon as a binding company who can we have faith in? They say it's gonna fly and they're putting a lot of marketing $$ into it and claim to have a lot of r+d $$ into them too. I think we have to give them a shot. If they suck they suck, but if they'e good they are well over a pound lighter than the next lightest decent 12 din binding on the market right now. These things plus trekkers weigh about the same as Naxo 21's but they have as tight a coupling as a Look toe. That is beginning to intrigue people.

Originally Posted by Bandit Man

Amen!

I remember hearing about the new Sallie's with upward release way back when the first Quadrax came out and that it was going to be all the rage (according to the rep). After seeing it in person I too was unimpressed and thought "What a piece of entry-level sh*t!" Now that they are being marketed as a replacement for the S912 (yeah, the single adjustment wings do blow) I just cannot buy into it. I long for the Sallie line of old with independent toe-wing adjustments, no upward releasing toe and metal in all the right places in a less than DIN 16 race binding.

I for one will new drop coin on the Z12 (aka re-packaged Quadrax)

**dorikin** · 12-02-2006, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by skimasterflex

I seriously question the validity of this statement. Have you honestly seen the carbon reinforced Z toe wings break, or are you talking about some older quadrax version? Not enough skiing has been done on these toes to really know either way yet, but you claim first hand experience with them beaking??

Yes I have seen them break.