Interresting post on Silverton (x-post)

[grskier]

Anyone saying they have read about a number of other bad experiences care to share with me where they read them. This is the first real bad experience I've read about the place.

[upallnight]

Are they going to play the "poor college kid" role and use that excuse every time they mess up?

aaron & jen's father is a lawyer and makes huge $$ on running some conferences.

"college kids" they might be. "poor" they ain't...

[GFP]

WTF happened to letting people judge risk for themselves - and pay the consequence

Anybody who has skied both in and out of the US has an appreciation for this issue. On the left side of the pond we hold our guests' hands and slap their wrists when they break a rule, on the right side of the pond guests ski whatever/wherever the hell they want and take responsibility for themselves. The well known reason for the difference: legal liability. It all comes back to lawyers.

Sounds to me like Silverton Mtn. was a little quick to alert the authorities on this one before gathering all the facts.

[FrankZappa]

Anyone saying they have read about a number of other bad experiences care to share with me where they read them. This is the first real bad experience I've read about the place.

Just heard around the grapevine mostly. This is the first I can remember reading.

Anybody who has skied both in and out of the US has an appreciation for this issue. On the left side of the pond we hold our guest's hands and slap their wrists when they break a rule, on the right side of the pond guests ski whatever/wherever the hell they want and take responsibility for themselves. The well known reason for the difference: legal liability. It all comes back to lawyers.

Thanks for finally stating that GFP.

[Mudfoot]

I skied Silverton unguided on the last day of their season. The place is a unique concept and they certainly appeared to have an extremely laid back attitude about alot of things, including directions and signage. This is understandable to some extent because the terrrain does not lend itself to being defined without miles of rope.

The end of last season was the first time they had unguided skiing, so they are still figuring it out, but you could climb, traverse and ski all over two valleys and never run into any signage. When I was there they closed one side (valley) about noon, and then closed the top of the climb later. But you could ski anywhere you wanted as long as you didn't cross a rope. Kind of the definition of "unguided." I skied half way down one chute, took my skis off and traverse/climbed over rocks to another. Was I 'off the area". No way of telling.

Based on my experience there I think it was b.s. for Brill to have customers arrested for skiing past some bamboo poles if there was no clear indication they were marking a closed area. I heard they borrowed every piece of bamboo they could find to open for unguided skiing. Were the reds ones supposed to be special? By definition you are your own guide. I have to think those guys were sacrificial lambs busted to make it look like they are patrolling the area to keep it safe and in compliance with their BLM permit

[Silverton Mt]

Thanks TGR friends for alerting us to these types of posts.

11 people were cited for skiing in closed areas during unguided skiing. We hated to have to cite them. It is a huge waste of time for us to have to bust skiers in closed areas, and an even bigger waste of the skiers time to have to deal with a ticket. In fact we wrote the court asking for as much leniency as possible for everyone cited.

We want people to have fun enjoying the mtn, and have very few areas closed except for private land or areas not ready for unguided. We open as much terrain every day as possible and keep pushing into new terrain as the snow stability allows. That is one of the cool things about the mtn. The terrain open for unguided skiing changes every day and even throughout the day based strictly on snow safety.

Our original goal was to provide a raw experience where skiers could go where they please as they please. As we all know the Feds aren't too keen on that type of concept so signs and ropes are on the mtn now. With that said, I am sure there are Mags who skied with us unguided and saw that the boundaries were easy to recognize.

Our markings follow CO law. Let's think about it a bit. The BLM is at the mtn almost every day to make sure we are in compliance with our permit. Their main concern is making sure people don't go beyond a boundary. They inspect our signage and ropes and if they were not ok they would make us change them before allowing skiers on the mtn. These are the same BLM who made us wait 6 years to allow unguided skiers on the mtn. As a result we have to follow a zero tolerance poaching policy. We don't hide this.

I feel bad for this guy, as do I for anyone busted for poaching. This guy and his friends were the only ones all year who were busted for poaching a boundary that did not belong to Jim Jackson however. The Jim Jackson postings were illogical boundaries that were hard to makes sense of as they were horizontal. The boundary in question was a logical ridge line separating two different bowls and well marked. A long vertical red bamboo line above treeline is easy to see with closed signs every 3 boo. When the 4 riders disappeared over the ridge which entered a new drainage the decison was made. It would have taken a while for them to hike out from their location, so the patroller decided to take them back in bounds via a small chute so he could get back to his position of the ridge top. The patroller was previously stationed on the top of the ridge as were several patrollers along the way to answer any questions.

I think we are the only ski area that I know of that makes each rider read an info sheet explaining our markings and zero tolerance policy before buying a lift ticket. Our trail maps additionally explain the required zero tolerance and rope/sign/bamboo policy again. We also station staff around the mtn to answer any questions that might occur. Every ski area chooses different levels of marking, some areas use 3 strands of rope to keep you out of closed areas and some close all scary cliffs. We try to provide an experience that requires some thinking and decision making in order stay off deadly cliffs etc. As much of a true mtn experience as possible. Unfortunately it is people that complain when they make a mistake(for the record I do believe this guy did not intend to poach based on his vehement response here, but he still poached ) that force the ski areas into marking and closing areas for the lowest common denominator, instead of allowing skiers to tackle anything they can handle. "You could die here today" is the first text of our trail map. We want to try and keep it raw, but skiers need to work with us, not against us for it to happen.

We are so small that skiers know they can affect us with posts like this, you don't see it much with a corporate resort because who will actually listen to you? We listen and try to get better every day. The mags who have been to the mtn know the real deal.
-Aaron

[Silverton Mt]

you be the judge...

[Silverton Mt]

looking up...
Both photos taken at the actual poach

[hutash]

Thanks for the response, but i now I am curious as to who's version is true. One says the boundaries are clearly marked with closed signs on every third bamboo, the other clearly states there were 3 bamboos with no signage, pretty much by themselves, not marking a continuous line. I would love to see the video.

[Silverton Mt]

Here is a copy of the info sheet each skier is supposed to read and acknowledge before getting a lift ticket. It may help clarify what we are trying to convey to skiers at the mtn. This was a part of the sign up procedure on the day in question, and every day day we operate unguided.


"Silverton Mountain Basic Info You Must Know Before Skiing

1. You must observe, read and understand all posted signs before skiing.
2. This is not a regular ski area. It is an Extreme Terrain only area and operates much differently. You could die here today. Cliffs and other hazards are not marked. Please respect that.
3. The only markings on the mountain indicate “CLOSED” areas.
4. Red/Orange poles and/or “CLOSED” signs or ropes are used to define “CLOSED” areas. There is a zero tolerance policy for any poaching, rope ducking, or entering into “CLOSED” areas and a $1,000 fine. WE ARE REQUIRED TO CALL THE SHERIFF FOR ANY POACHING INFRACTIONS. Help us keep it the mountain open and safe.
5. Only skiers accompanied by a Silverton Mountain guide may enter “CLOSED” areas, or leave the ski area boundary, or duck ropes. If you see skiers entering a “CLOSED” area that are not with a Silverton Mountain guide call them out. Guides can be hired at the base for $30 a run.
6. If it appears to be “CLOSED”, it is. The whole run or zone, top to bottom. Looking for a sneak route into a closed area will not fly here. We can't keep the mountain open for unguided skiing if people poach.
7. You will need to pay attention and it is your responsibility to be sure you are in an area open for unguided skiing.
8. You are skiing avalanche paths. Minimize your time spent in them. Avalanches run through the thick trees here. Do not spend extra time or eat lunch in bowls, chutes or terrain traps, especially near creeks and cliffs any longer than necessary. It could save your life.
9. You are required to have a working avalanche beacon, shovel, probe, and sign a liability release before purchasing a ticket. You can rent those items.
10. Don't forget to have fun. Our goal is to have as much terrain as possible open and gradually expand the unguided boundaries and backcountry access points if people cooperate by following our safety rules.
11. We recommend skiing with a partner.
12. If you are tired of waiting for a shuttle you might want to walk or ski back to the base. Please walk or ski on the edge of the road.
13. If you return again to ski, you do not need to sign a waiver again if you get a frequent skier card (no charge).
14. Your lift ticket must be attached to you pants and pants only.
15. The ONLY toilets are by the white tent at the bottom of the lift
16. Please have patience and try to relax.

I the undersigned have read, understand, and will abide by the rules and information written above.
.

____________________________________ _____________________________________ ___
Printed Name of PARTICIPANT Signature of PARTICIPANT Date

____________________________________ _____________________________________ ____
Printed Name of Parent/Legal Guardian Signature of Parent/Legal Guardian Date

[hutash]

no photos showing. Sorry if my post over lapped yours

[Silverton Mt]

do the pics show up now? The one looking down shows the actual poach spot.

[skiHOG]

so, you're saying this guy is lying by saying there were 3 bamboos with no signage?

[hutash]

do the pics show up now? The one looking down shows the actual poach spot.

Yep, they work now. Looks well marked from the pic, sure would love to see the vid.

What would Judge Judy say......

[Silverton Mt]

I am saying that the photos show the whole story. This guy boarded past the entire bamboo line and didn't notice what it was conveying. Having witnessed it in action, one of the boarders actually used a piece of bamboo to pull himself uphill and over the ridge to the other side and into the closed area.

[altagirl]

Quite honestly - I don't even care. We had such a great time at Silverton and felt that we got much MORE than we paid for. There will always be people who can't deal with being told where to ski, guided or not. Those people are bound not to like it, but their negativity isn't going to affect my desire to go back.

[EZB]

altagirl, you cared enough to read, then add your two cents. Are you saying Sciortino got his $99 worth even though he got cited and kicked out? Essentially by the same guy who "believes this guy did not intend to poach"?

[DanKo]

To me this whole thing seems to be settled by the common sense rule that if the resort closes areas, then they should mark the closures clearly, especially if by virtue of their closure, they are making it illegal to ski in a particular area. It's the same thing as if the state put up an illegible speed limit sign and you got a ticket for speeding it, even though you couldn't read the sign.

BINGO!

A closure needs to be marked as a CLOSURE. Three sticks of bamboo with no rope does not a closure make.

I will follow this to see how it turns out. I'd wager that these guys beat the Silverton judge. Silverton's closures should look like closures in the rest of the state if you're going to have unguided skiing.

That said, I've skied Silverton twice. Both guided (before there was an option). Had one crappy snow day with a guide who was a dick. Had another foot(+) day with an awesome guide.

[Blurred]

I am saying that the photos show the whole story. This guy boarded past the entire bamboo line and didn't notice what it was conveying. Having witnessed it in action, one of the boarders actually used a piece of bamboo to pull himself uphill and over the ridge to the other side and into the closed area.

Depending on the visibility that day, isn't it possible to ski past the bamboo without seeing the closed signs? If the visibility is good, isn't it possible people are still gaping at the scenery and not paying attention? Also, we live in a society that NEVER reads the fine print. Very possible that they overlooked anything printed stating this was a closed area on your "info sheet". I'd suggest you invest in some rope and connect the bamboo like every other ski resort does.

edit-I'm very pro-possible.

[KillingCokes]

Zero tolerance is an unacceptable policy on a fundamental level. It assumes intent on all occasions and punishes on all occasions. For what is supposed to be a very cool place I don't see how this policy can be in place. I've skied Silverton and had a great time but I'm not sure I like the inflexibility I hear in their explanation about this incident. It seems to me that there could be something that Silverton could learn from this so it doesn't happen in the future and they don't have to kick people off the mountain.

Everyone in Colorado knows the rule that you don't duck a rope. Why is Silverton different. It is a ski area so it needs to act like a ski area and not make excuses why it won't act like a ski area.

I want to see them put up rope lines on boundaries so this doesn't happen again.

[Cyber Cop]

If you didn't know what was closed you weren't paying attention bottom line. They made it very clear how they were marking closures and there was a billboard, no pun intended, stating open and closed terrain right next to the big photo trail map. There were also guides and patrol working the ridge line giving info on the goods and the bad. Anyway unguided was money, If you know you know, I encourage the rest to stay home and preserve the pow pow.

[Skid Lux]

Silverton can afford $100 worth of shitty rope? If your gonna close it then close it. Dont kind of close it and then blame the skier.

[Cyber Cop]

How bout they not rope up the entire mountain and said skiers just pull their heads out their respective asses?

[Silverton Mt]

Perhaps we missed judged our market on this? We are here to serve our skiers and will make changes if needed. But I always thought people preferred a more natural skiing environment with less condos, less concrete, less ropes and less signs and a more personal thought process so you can make some decisions on where to go within the external boundary.

Of course more ropes can always be added if that is what the market demands. I guess when someone flails down an unsigned cliff that has a totally obvious horizon line to most people in most conditions we will get requests to rope all cliffs someday as well. I am somewhat surprised by the reactions.

This area in question is only open with good visibility. (The zero tolerance thing is a part of our BLM ops plan)

[altagirl]

altagirl, you cared enough to read, then add your two cents. Are you saying Sciortino got his $99 worth even though he got cited and kicked out? Essentially by the same guy who "believes this guy did not intend to poach"?

I'm saying I believe I can figure out what's open and what's not, even if it's just marked with bamboo and not rope, so I'm not going to worry about it and it won't affect my decision to go back. I know plenty of people who like to push stuff like that "well, it's a line of bamboo sticks, but they missed a sign, so we can talk our way out of it if we get caught" And I think whether it was mismarked or not is debatable, but I think the probability is that it wouldn't have been that hard to figure out what was actually intended to be open or closed.

I agree "zero tolerance" sucks, but I believe that's what they have to do to remain open. I'd rather have them open with zero tolerance than not open at all. If that means I someday get a ticket for making a mistake - yeah, that sucks, but that's life.