Interresting post on Silverton (x-post)

**hutash** · 11-18-2006, 07:33 PM

Guilty....off with his head!

**IridePow** · 11-18-2006, 07:41 PM

I think with this pictures it is pretty clear that it was closed.

However since everybody here in the US is used to ropes all over the place, they just tended to overlook that fact and tried to get to the goods. They probably thought they can talk themselves out of it due to the lack of ropes.

Sorry buddy just pay the freaking penalty and stop bitching.

Maybe you have the money and time to check out some European resorts and then you will see even some "better" close signs.

**powtothepeops** · 11-18-2006, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by hutash

Correct me if I am wrong, but the last picture shows 5 boos evenly placed, one with a sign on it, all tracks stopping at the boos, and this suggests to me a boundary line. If this is the picture you are using as your defense, I suggest saving the trip to court, and mail in the fine.

We traversed 30 yards above the white sign with marker on it. Unfortunately, this photo shows lower than that. This was taken at the last run of the day when everyone had skied over to check it out. But great job being so perceptive.
This forum has turned to name calling and judging two photos. Aaron knows the truth, we know the truth, and the two patrollers know the truth.

Thank you to all that have read and commented on this site, especially those who wrote intelligent quotes about ski resort responsibility as compared to the amount of prosecuting power they hold.

Aaron Brill should not have the right to call the cops, have you cited, then let you back on the mountain cuz he knows he was wrong, then ask the DA dept. to impose the smallest fine possible in hopes that people like me will be less mad?!!!No thanks, I'll take my chances with Justice rather than pay a small fine. BUY SOME ROPE!!!
DON'T CALL THE COPS ON ME WHEN YOU F-ED UP! AARON.

**cj001f** · 11-18-2006, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by powtothepeops

Aaron Brill should not have the right to call the cops, have you cited, then let you back on the mountain cuz he knows he was wrong, then ask the DA dept. to impose the smallest fine possible in hopes that people like me will be less mad?!!!No thanks, I'll take my chances with Justice rather than pay a small fine. BUY SOME ROPE!!!
DON'T CALL THE COPS ON ME WHEN YOU F-ED UP! AARON.

Welcome to the real world dumbshit. Own up and apologize or fade away quick.

**gh444** · 11-18-2006, 08:26 PM

disclaimer: i dont know the guys making the original claim, nor do i know the silverton owners.

Silverton made a number of huge mistakes here and they've shown it in their responses.
first- you have the option of not pressing charges, so your claim of trying to influence the courts to be nice is BS. If you felt that they didnt do it with intention, say so and have the charges dropped.
second- its your responsibility to know your customer base and be responsive, for better or worse. your customer base are guys who push the limits. period. your customer base is skiers who know that a bamboo pole doesnt necessarily indicate closure.
third- if you have the resources to post that many signs, then you have the resources to run a rope, especially in an area that isn't technical or difficult. your "horizontal property line" is B.S. as the pics show.
fourth- I know one of your guides and he is a great guy and excellent guide. but if you're hiring people who are triggering slides on snodgrass, they have no business guiding in your neck of the woods.
fifth- there is no chance that this ticket will only cost $30.
sixth- having a 'take responsibility for yourself" attitude means just that. skiers step out of bounds at their own risk. if you want to be like guided heli skiing outfits then you need to lose this attitude. they take great care over their guests. your only excuse is if the area they were in was putting your guests, who were inbounds, at risk.

finally, you lose all credit when you claim you saw these guys poach. if they were behind a patroller and you were behind them, then where were your radios?

i will always argue that if a resolution can be achieved in private then its not appropriate to call out a business in public. however, everything i've read, leads me to believe your operation is negligant and trying to pass the blame.

-aaron
-aaron

**jfost** · 11-18-2006, 08:37 PM

I guess if it is private land you have to go by their rules... it seems to me that the issue is with BLM - not SM. SM has to do what they have to do, if it was found out that people broke the rules and were let go, they could lose their permit right!?! Hence the 0 tolerance policy.

The real question is, why are there legal consequences for being at any one point on the globe... that is BS. The world would be better with less government intrusion in our private lives...

I don't know the land ownership deal there at SM... presumably that is a huge part of this story?!?

**srockwood** · 11-18-2006, 08:53 PM

Warren, or Trey, or whatever your name is,

It's a bummer you had such a rough day on April 16th. I was there skiing too, and it was amazing-- as you point out in you note. I'm sorry that your choices prevented you from having the same experience as I did that day. The thing is, I live in Silverton and ski the mountain as much as I can. After several years of skiing here, I've never once traveled to Crested Butte, though I've skied with pleanty of ripping and cool Crested Butte skiers down here. It must be frustrating to come from a pretty standardized place where patrollers cater to the lowest common denominator by marking everything and assuming responsiblity for what should be a skier's responsibility (especially "expert, adult" skiers). I must admit, I thought when Silverton went unguided in April that we'd be skiing a lot of trees in Zone 1, but thanks to Jenny and Aaron and the hard work of Silverton's patrollers, we had the opportunity to ski runs never opened to the public before-- you know, the ones right next to the rope you ducked. So you might be down on Silverton, but I have a feeling that that's because you blame others for your own stupid mistakes. I don't know you, but I've noticed you have trouble spelling (shoots), reading, and after seeing your performance in the tent that day, I'm confident that no matter how sweet you think you are, you're kind of a loser who is trying to have a negative effect on a great place and the people who can actually figure out where to ski.

**Blurred** · 11-18-2006, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by gonehuckin

sixth- having a 'take responsibility for yourself" attitude means just that. skiers step out of bounds at their own risk. if you want to be like guided heli skiing outfits then you need to lose this attitude. they take great care over their guests. your only excuse is if the area they were in was putting your guests, who were inbounds, at risk.

DING DING DING!!! We have a winner folks!

**gh444** · 11-18-2006, 09:09 PM

srockwood-

you're very right, you've obviously never skied the butte.

-aaron

**jSki** · 11-18-2006, 09:37 PM

While I largely blame the Colorado laws for this, Silverton should put up ropes to mark the ski area boundaries. I can think of no reason not to. It doesn't take away from the experience at all, and can prevent someone from having to go through this entire ordeal in the future.

The fact is that going out of the ski area boundaries is an arrestable offence. In this case they weren't arrested, but if some cop happened to have a bad day, they could have easily been arrested. For any real job you have to list the times you were arrested, and pleading guilty is going to be on your record forever. Poaching can significantly affect getting a job. Everyone, including Silverton agrees that this was not intentional poaching. As such, their unreasonable policy of prosecuting every instance lead to this outcome. If they are going to have this policy, they need to rope and make the boundaries clear.

This is not an issue of Silverton closing difficult terrain, including cliffs, in the future. It is an issue of clearly marking what is legal to ski, and what isn't. The repercussions of poaching can be significant, and Silverton can easily prevent their customers from accidentally poaching terrain.

I am not impressed with Silverton after reading this, and it will effect my desire to ski Silverton in the future.

Also, I am confused with what the original poster was saying about Silverton advertising this area as open. Can anyone explain what the original poster was saying about it being advertised on their web site?

**basinburn** · 11-18-2006, 10:15 PM

Fact- If you have a brain cell a workin and your at a fraggin place like Silverton you keep your eyes open!

Ski it like the BC and not like your the macho man randy savage !

Thks for pulling me out of silverton river. Yeah it's me. Jokes may follow

**beaterdit** · 11-18-2006, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by powtothepeops

WAAAAAAHHH, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH, WAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH, WAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH, I'm a badass, WAAAAAHHHHHHH, WAHHHHHHHHH, SOOOOO BAD, WAHHHH.

Split Kook!
Don't come back till you finish high school.

**Meadow Skipper** · 11-19-2006, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by gonehuckin

disclaimer: i dont know the guys making the original claim, nor do i know the silverton owners.

Silverton made a number of huge mistakes here and they've shown it in their responses.
first- you have the option of not pressing charges, so your claim of trying to influence the courts to be nice is BS. If you felt that they didnt do it with intention, say so and have the charges dropped.

I'm guessing you missed the parts where SM posted that zero tolerance is part of the Ops plan filed with BLM and that BLM people are out at the mtn nearly every day and where other people pointed out that this is BLM's only ski area and dealing with them is difficult, slow and they lack flexibility. It's on page 2 if you want to re-read. I could go on about the onerousness of dealing with a bureacracy like BLM, but maybe if you just think about it for a minute I won't have to.

second- its your responsibility to know your customer base and be responsive, for better or worse. your customer base are guys who push the limits. period. your customer base is skiers who know that a bamboo pole doesnt necessarily indicate closure.

Maybe they need a customer base that listens during the briefings. That works for me.

<snip> the rest lack of actual facts.

**CaddyDaddy77** · 11-19-2006, 09:42 AM

Not to play in others mess too much, but I find it interesting that people are surprised that they have reprecussions for their actions.

At a ski resort just down the highway from Silverton their have been multiple incidents where skiers have been citied for skiing out-of bounds. Many have claimed that they never intended to ski out of bounds or didn't see any signage. The signage to note is sparsely placeds signs on trees and very minimal rope outlining the resorts boundry. One is to assume that the land over yonder in the trees is no man's land. When skiers have gone missing and our found out-of bounds they are charged with tresspassing and may be charged with the rescue, if necessitated. From experience this boundry is not even remotely as well marked as the pictures provided.

Silverton used as mentioned the appropriate signage to mark a boundry.

Just checking, when did it become so passe to blaze past multiple boo's and not think that they are in place for a reason? Multiple resorts have them at cliff-out croppings, rock-gardens etc. (Steamboat, Taos, Wolf Creek....) When I see Boo I think, rocks, drops =caution, not the gas pedal.

I don't think the policy is a great one but given what is at risk I can understand the basis for it. If you buy a ticket you are within the scope of the resorts rules. I enjoy Silverton because their are few, but key ones to observe. I don't ski with the same approach as with many other areas, it's not the same, and in that lies it's beauty.

I will acknowledge that it sounds like their are faults in both parties, but the attitude of Trea is pretty obvious as to the willingness to admit fault.

I've bootpacked multiple days there and skied multiple days there. I've had some absolutely stellar days and some just amazing days. It was skiing, it's what you make of it. Look around take it in, be aware of your enviroment and ski accordingly.

If your looking for somewhere where you can hike all over the map like and ant and face no reprecussion, go BC. There's lots of open space, just don't rely upon anyone checking the terrain for stability, etc. Go on your own, have fun. Obviosly Trea sounds like an experienced skier, but use that experience when playing in someone else's sandbox.
Complaining when you stepped over a set boundry that was marked by state guidelines and not admitting as such is a weak argument.
Sorry yur getting fined, that sucks, goverment interference is never goood IMO, but the end to a mean, good luck with the court proceeding, fighting it should add to your enjoyment of trashing this issue.

**MadMatt** · 11-19-2006, 09:45 AM

I guess if I was skiing at a mountain like Silverton, I would be paying very close attention to every sign and marker around.

Kinda like I did when Berthoud was still lift served.

**hutash** · 11-19-2006, 11:14 AM

Can some one explain Colorado law to me. Why is it illegal to leave a ski resort onto public land, in this case BLM. If you hiked up from the road onto this same land, with out going onto resort land, would it still be illegal? I understand about not going onto private land, trespassing and all, but why on Fed land? I don't know if this is unique to Colorado, but in California you can duck ropes anywhere along a boundary as long as you are going on to public land. There are specific area closures with in a resorts operating permit that you can not enter without consequences, but that does not apply to boundaries. Of course once you duck a rope you are on your own, no avi control, no patrol, no rescue from the resort, et cetera.

**Tippster** · 11-19-2006, 11:32 AM

The land in question that they trespassed on isn't public, I think. The owner is a bit of a hard ass and if he complains that BLM land use is facilitating the trespass onto his property then that can get the Brill's permit yanked.

**gh444** · 11-19-2006, 11:42 AM

nope i caught that part. i also caught the part where the ticket and charges are being pursued by the brills and not the BLM. i also understand that a government agency cant force you to press charges.

Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper

I'm guessing you missed the parts where SM posted that zero tolerance is part of the Ops plan filed with BLM and that BLM people are out at the mtn nearly every day and where other people pointed out that this is BLM's only ski area and dealing with them is difficult, slow and they lack flexibility. It's on page 2 if you want to re-read. I could go on about the onerousness of dealing with a bureacracy like BLM, but maybe if you just think about it for a minute I won't have to.

Maybe they need a customer base that listens during the briefings. That works for me.

<snip> the rest lack of actual facts.

**Buster Highmen** · 11-19-2006, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by gonehuckin

nope i caught that part. i also caught the part where the ticket and charges are being pursued by the brills and not the BLM. i also understand that a government agency cant force you to press charges.

The point is that the BLM requirements for the permit include a zero tolerance policy on skiing closed areas.

This is not an ego or bullying issue. It's simply part of the contract. And the Feds are sticklers and in that sense they _are_ forcing the persuance

Painting the situation as a function of a personal issue is just wrong.

Is the waving of M. Sciortino's fine really worth losing the permit?

**gh444** · 11-19-2006, 12:08 PM

buster-
correct me if i'm wrong but you just reiterated the original complaint that the Brills are willing to pass-up doing the right thing in order to continue to operate.

-aaron

**cj001f** · 11-19-2006, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by hutash

Can some one explain Colorado law to me. Why is it illegal to leave a ski resort onto public land, in this case BLM. If you hiked up from the road onto this same land, with out going onto resort land, would it still be illegal? I understand about not going onto private land, trespassing and all, but why on Fed land? I don't know if this is unique to Colorado, but in California you can duck ropes anywhere along a boundary as long as you are going on to public land. There are specific area closures with in a resorts operating permit that you can not enter without consequences, but that does not apply to boundaries. Of course once you duck a rope you are on your own, no avi control, no patrol, no rescue from the resort, et cetera.

Entering an area marked closed - no matter what is on the other side - is illegal in California.
http://www.earnyourturns.com/article...p?articleID=38
The article discusses Colorado law as well.

Alternatively you can read the Colorado ski safety act:
http://www.dora.state.co.us/tramway/SkiSafetyAct.pdf
All that is legally required to designate a closed trail is a sign.
Violating that is a petty offense - a fine of not more than $1,000 and NO JAIL TIME

gonehuckin - just stop. please.

**addicted2coldsmoke** · 11-19-2006, 01:06 PM

Aaron Brill! These questions are for you AND ONLY YOU.

Do you run this ski area called Silverton Mountain in Colorado? Are you the owner of this company or do you have investors with decision making abilities in the day-to-day operations of your company? Did you have the ultimate decision in pressing charges against this crew? Do you work with the Forest Service/BLM directly on your Management/Operational Plan or do you do so through an agent on your behalf? Are you telling us in this forum today that the Forest Service/BLM made you institute and enforce a "zero tolerance" policy with regards to poaching a closure/restriction signage display? Did the Forest Service/BLM manager assigned to your permit give you the suggestion of this "zero tolerance" policy? Did the Forest Service/BLM manager for your particular quasi ski area make you enter this "zero" policy within your Operational/Management Plan for Permit even though it is his/her job to act as a representative for all citizens and potential users of this land? He/She did not offer/suggest a plan of action with regards to a person/group poaching a closure/restriction signage display? He/She did not ask you, or your company, for what your plan would be in response to such an act? He/She made you press charges on this group when you argued on thier behalf of the mistake which you earlier agreed was a mistake? He/She made you press charges when you argued on your own behalf of the apparent "slip" in management in not assuring/mitigating that one of your customers knew exactly where they were located on your mountain when they were paying guests at your operation? Are you saying here today that the Forest Service/BLM has a specific person to handle your operating/mamangement plan on a daily basis with daily visits to your ski area? Are you saying that your per guest permit fee that is charged to your company by the Forest Service/BLM covers a specific and applied person to your ski area every single day of your operation? In your area(Silverton/Durango Colorado) is the local Forest Service/BLM office so adequately staffed that a person is designated soley to your operation? Does your ski area markedly distinguish from the ski area boundary and a closure/restricted area?

Please answer all of these questions. I work with the Forest Service/BLM myself on many occasion and have decide to step forward in this forum to help out other citizens in explaining this occurence at your ski area.
Thanks,
Addicted2ColdSmoke

**Cyber Cop** · 11-19-2006, 01:23 PM

Addicted2ColdPole, These questions are for you AND ONLY YOU.

Did your mother change your diaper this morning?
Did we interrupt your nap time?
Were you busy smoking pole when you were alerted to this thread.
Are you the stud flirt master flash that wrote the following???...

We were there in March of 2004. We had a good group of healthy skiers and managed to clock in 7 unbelievable runs. But one of them was a nightmare. We had a cute guide and I was hitting on her all day. She was new to the Silverton team and was assigned to our group as her first tour on her own.

We proceeded to get busy and made some unbelievable schralp sessions.

You sound like a real winner.

split kook.

**Greydon Clark** · 11-19-2006, 01:29 PM

Addicted2ColdSmoke, why/don't/you/go/fuck/yourself/little/man?

**Meadow Skipper** · 11-19-2006, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by gonehuckin

nope i caught that part. i also caught the part where the ticket and charges are being pursued by the brills and not the BLM. i also understand that a government agency cant force you to press charges.

I guess I'm going to have to explain it to you - the Brills operate largely on BLM-permitted land. If the Brills don't follow the Operating plan that was filed - as a condition of the permit - then their permit is in jeopardy. The government can force you to follow the conditions of the permit.

The Brills have had a long struggle to get BLM to allow unguided skiing. The BLM was very disinclined to allow unguided skiing, and (though I don't know for sure) I would think that the zero-tolerance clause was put in to get BLM to let up on their opposition to unguided skiing.