Ukraine

[MultiVerse]

That's backwards. President Trump has weakened American Russian sanctions since taking office. The EU and the UK are already sanctioning Russia's shadow oil tanker fleet. But Russia's fleet keeps growing because EU sanctions are not enough. The United States must join Europe's effort. US sanctions pack a punch, European ones don't

So more sanctions on energy, Russian refined products, Russia's shadow oil tanker fleet, Chinese banks who do business with Russia, sanction all tech, sanction countries that act as pass throughs for Russia.

In addition to sanctions:
- Ironclad Western security guarantees
- No limitations on Ukraine's military size
- No Russian veto over EU accession and joining Nato
- No decisions over territory without Ukraine's consent
- Oil price cap remains place &
- Sanctions stay in place until Russia pays to rebuild the damage it caused in Ukraine

[riser4]

Plus Russia gives back all territory including the occupied areas from 2014r whenever it was, plus Crimea and the naval base lease is null and void. Plus a 200 km strip inside Russia and on the black Sea where Russia is not allowed to have any military assets of any kind, including electronic warning systems. Border guards to be issued nightsticks and tasers.

[liv2ski]

"In addition to sanctions:
- Ironclad Western security guarantees
- No limitations on Ukraine's military size
- No Russian veto over EU accession and joining Nato
- No decisions over territory without Ukraine's consent
- Oil price cap remains place &
- Sanctions stay in place until Russia pays to rebuild the damage it caused in Ukraine".

I guess hell has frozen over as I finally agree with you on something.
And what Riser said.

[MultiVerse]

Gotta say seven months later and the WH meeting between Trump and Zelensky along with European leaders went much better than the one in January. As if this guy wasn't even there:

[riser4]

I shudder to think of how much more fucked we'd be if that guy had to take over for the current guy.

[mcski]

I don’t think he’d be as able to bully Congress. Devil you know. I’d take my chances w the couch fucker

[PB]

Immediate NATO membership, with a 60 day grace period for the removal of all Russian forces back to the pre-Crimea invasion boarder before activating Article 5.

[Casey E]

Problem is Donny seeks a business opportunity in any “deal”, first and foremost. Putin knows this, and plays him like a fine ukelele.

But the second thing he seeks, relentlessly, is attention and viral clips. So expect more big beautiful summits that go nowhere. Like when Donny fixed North Korea.

This won’t end until, as my Russian friend said, Putin is dead. Or Donny and JeD both die and a real leader pops up.

Putin has Russia on war footing for the long term and has the axis of evil supporting him. Limpdick Donny is a just manageable distraction.

Guess any foreigners participating in this thread should be wary about travel to the US now. Especially me. But I haven’t travelled to the US since 2018, when a touchy customs agent detained my wife because she couldn’t remember the last date she was in the US (we usually traveled to Canada from Chile via the US), and looked “funny” at her.

[mcski]

Immediate NATO membership, with a 60 day grace period for the removal of all Russian forces back to the pre-Crimea invasion boarder before activating Article 5.

Seriously. If we had a prez w balls and cared bout the US instead of himself, WTF would Putin do if we gave him this option? He’s lost a million soldiers, who knows how much money spent. Ukraine losses makes capitulation in Afghanistan pale. The only reason they are sticking around is a failure to fully commit by the US and the euros. If anything, Ukraine would be taking over Russian

[Trackhead]

Our current president seems to have plenty of balls (brains is debatable). Putin doesn't give a fuck how many soldiers he loses. He's a former KGB guy with a life long hard on to get back to the good 'ol USSR days with Ukraine included. He's an old fuck, probably wants it for his "legacy" and ego.

Assuming our sanctions and non-military threats will change his behavior might not be effective to the degree we hope.

"The collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century" - Putin

[gravitylover]

As mentioned above, he has the country and the economy on a wat footing so they're just about up to speed manufacturing most of the things they need to run a war for a while. The rest they'll trade arms and oil for. They can run this way for a while and I don't know how much damage our sanctions can do to that.

[cat in january]

Well if we really shut down the oil sales the Russian economy would grind to a halt pretty damn quick. That’s something we could easily do, but it would cause economic pain and the US and Europe don’t have the stomach for it.

[riser4]

Well if we really shut down the oil sales the Russian economy would grind to a halt pretty damn quick. That’s something we could easily do, but it would cause economic pain and the US and Europe don’t have the stomach for it.

We're too busy dealing with economic pain, or about to be dealing with economic pain, from a whole long list of self-inflicted toddler tantrum wounds.

[PB]

How do you force China to stop buying Russian oil?

[Trackhead]

<p>

How do you force China to stop buying Russian oil?

And refining it, then selling it to Europe&hellip;..&nbsp;</p>

[MultiVerse]

Try to keep up: by sanctioning Russia's shadow fleet. Man, if the Cold War were fought again today America and its allies would lose with this group of people. Instead folks argue for the USA to surrender.

The Russian economy was tanking when Trump took office. It still is. Just not as much because he threw Putin a lifeline. Sanction enforcement is down, trade with Russia is up. Why was Russia spared from Trump’s tariffs?

Because the Russian economy is fragile, unsustainable, and cracking under the weight of war. The Kremlin is battling high inflation, labor shortages, and crippling interest rates. The key interest rate sits at 20%. That's 20% with low growth and high inflation.

The only thing keeping the Russian economy afloat is massive war spending. The non-war economy is shrinking and businesses are failing at an alarming rate. Russia burned through its Cold War Soviet-era stockpiles and is relying on material support from China, Central Asia, Iran, and North Korea to circumvent sanctions and keep fighting.

Sanctions are working — but they are not being enforced. Russia survives by skirting sanctions through third countries. The United States should stop keeping Russia’s economy afloat. More pressure, less excuses

[up an down]

Good summation .. And none of the outcomes that we desire will happen with Putin influencing/controlling Trump.

[Trackhead]

The U.S. and Europe are attempting to sanction the shadow fleet with limited success. Enforcing it isn’t easy.

How do you suggest the U.S. better enforce such sanctions on said fleet when China/India/etc are buying it regardless?

I don’t think the answer to Putin is as black and white as you make it out to be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MultiVerse]

The opposite is true in the sense Trump doesn't have an effective plan for dealing with Putin. He never did. The entire premise that negotiate with and appeasing Putin was entirely wrong. Putin played Trump into weakening sanctions etc. Now, Putin once again backs out of the talks with Zelensky he promised to everyone, including Trump. Turns out he lied (again) and just wants to keep destroying Ukraine and the Ukrainian people.

At some point all the people here who argued Trump had a better strategy should just admit they were wrong

[riser4]

.
should just admit they were wrong

Are you new on this planet?

[KQ]

As I see it the only way to save Ukraine and beat back Putin at this point is allied troops on the ground. Yes it will be messy but he will not go away and after Ukraine he will turn his sights on another country. He must be dealt with sooner than later. We've already wasted 3 years.

[summit]

A JCS execution order from the President for MAO 1 would be... impactful. Could call it Operation Fried Orc. I bet they'd never see it coming given the dilapidated state of their sats and radars. I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed...

Or you could go with MV's plan. That's probably better.