Wildfire ‘24

[old goat]

When I started in WF in 2000 there was a robust debate (especially in CA) going on about building in the WUI, how to build in the WUI, how to put in place codes around building materials and required clearances and a general consensus from wildfire experts that it was a bad idea to build and fight fire in the WUI in general because we were going to burn a lot of houses, potentially kill a bunch of people and it was going to be really, really expensive.

All of the concerns have pretty much been ignored in favor of further development in WUI areas. So here we are 25 years later with year after year of community destroying events, insurance companies pulling out, climate conditions getting worse and the federal WFF workforce about to implode and apparently having learned virtually nothing.


(By the way, in my entire career as a WFF, the people complaining about not getting hired as a white guy were universally shitbags.)

The whole state of California is the WUI, except for the central valley, which is a flood plain, and the Mojave Desert. Houses will inevitably be built on the urban edges--ie WUI--because there is nowhere else to build them. As you say, the only answer is to build housing to be as fire resistant as possible, but we can't even afford cheaply built housing and I don't see relocating the entire population of the state.
BTW--the proposed fire evacuation plan for the proposed Olympic Valley development is shelter in place. Hope that works out.

[I Skied Bandini Mountain]

The whole state of California is the WUI, except for the central valley, which is a flood plain, and the Mojave Desert.

Well, because of the Cheatgrass, the high desert is now high fire risk.

[bodywhomper]

I’m hearing concerns that the LA mayor’s EO for quickly rebuilding will likely inhibit the opportunity for building a more resilient community.

Re:shelter in place. There needs to be more of this. IDK what it takes from hardening to maintenance for a safe shelter in place to exist, but it seems like the only reasonable solution in many places. There are [emoji640] summer camps by me. The county designated/approved one large building as the SIP for all the camps. I hope it works. I don’t see another solution.


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[old goat]

I’m hearing concerns that the LA mayor’s EO for quickly rebuilding will likely inhibit the opportunity for building a more resilient community.

Re:shelter in place. There needs to be more of this. IDK what it takes from hardening to maintenance for a safe shelter in place to exist, but it seems like the only reasonable solution in many places. There are [emoji640] summer camps by me. The county designated/approved one large building as the SIP for all the camps. I hope it works. I don’t see another solution.


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Other solutions--early evacuation(as was done for the West Shore of Tahoe during the Caldor Fire, since there would have been no hope of evacuating rapidly once fire reached the area, which it never did), removing vegetation along evacuation routes, directing evacuations on all available lanes, even if this hampers the ability of firefighters to get to the flames (Truckee plans to turn I80 into a one way highway away from town), robust communication (in the Lahaina fire comms were down, no one knew which roads were open and no one directed evacuation. As horrible as the loss of life in the LA fires has been, it seems remarkable that most people were able to get out. Of note--a lot of people who die in wildfires are older people who can't drive.

[bodywhomper]

Yes. Early evacuations is a great solution, but not always an option.

Imagine a Paradise or Pacific Palisades type of fire occurring in the Tahoe Basin over a holiday weekend.

[I Skied Bandini Mountain]

Yes. Early evacuations is a great solution, but not always an option.

Imagine a Paradise or Pacific Palisades type of fire occurring in the Tahoe Basin over a holiday weekend.

If the Palisades fire had blown up in Laurel Canyon, the death toll would have been in the hundreds if not more.

In 1993 during the Laguna fire (which missed my uncle's house by 100 yards), they evacuated and closed PCH early in the incident. The people who lived in Monarch bay got around that by getting their boats at Newport harbor, motoring down and throwing the hook over at the beach, and then swimming to shore to run home and try to save their houses.

[plugboots]

I don’t feel like looking up the exact specifics, but there’s some talk by right wing politicians that they should move the Olympics to a red state. The replies I read were pretty hilarious saying that it’s pretty far off, and actually an incredibly small portion of the homes in the greater LA area that were burned, etc. Then the guy finished up with: “We Angelinos can walk and chew gum at the same time, dumbass.”

[bodywhomper]

Policy-wise, I’m not sure which federal agencies will fund development/retrofitting areas or structures for shelter in place. I know of one that used to intentionally not fund that type of grant.

FX for another SoCal Red Flag warning early next week


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[JibbaJabba]

Shelter in place for wildfires sounds like a terrible idea. Even if your infrastructure can survive a firestorm, can you imagine how horrifying that would be?? Hard to imagine it ever working, but then again it could be better than getting caught on the highway with everyone else trying to evacuate. Wildfires are incredibly unpredictable, and native americans did better at forest management than we've ever done with far fewer people, because they lived close to the land and developed a much more complex understanding to it than bureaucrats who determine policies will ever have. In fact, that knowledge probably still exists but will probably not be acted upon

[Meadow Skipper]

Shelter in place for wildfires sounds like a terrible idea.

Better than dying in a traffic jam on a narrow suburban/country road.
Tunnel fire, Oakland 1991
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_firestorm_of_1991
…and many others.

…native americans did better at forest management than we've ever done with far fewer people, because they lived close to the land and developed a much more complex understanding to it than bureaucrats who determine policies will ever have. In fact, that knowledge probably still exists but will probably not be acted upon

Well, as you pointed out, there were infinitely less of them, and they were infinitely more mobile. There was nothing like Pacific Palisades or Santa Rosa CA in native America. Their knowledge can only be acted upon in very remote areas. And they didn’t have Karens complaining to mayors, governors, and legislators about smoke. It’s hard to imagine how the native Americans would handle urban areas like Pacific Palisades. How would you apply Native American knowledge to the LA basin or Bay Area?

Also, they had many years of fire maintenance, they weren’t immeasurably behind the curve like we are. Their lessons aren’t applicable to many places in the lower 48.

[muted reborn]

Tunnel fire, Oakland 1991
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_firestorm_of_1991
.

"At the fire's peak, it destroyed one house every 11 seconds. By the first hour, the fire had destroyed nearly 790structures"

Holy fackkk.

[Bunion 2020]

.

How do you clean up a fire disaster unlike any other in modern times? ‘It’s going to be an enormous undertaking’
Ella Nilsen


As the winds die down and firefighters seize control of the deadly infernos that have scorched more than 60 square miles, Los Angeles faces an unimaginable task before anyone can rebuild: Cleaning up the toxic, smoldering remains.

More than 12,000 structures have been destroyed, many of them homes and businesses that are reduced to ashy foundation footprints. Cars are charred to the frame, their tires melted into black puddles of rubber. Batteries powering EVs — popular choices in LA — threaten to reignite like unexploded munitions.

The remaining fires are drawing out an agonizing return for residents, and it will be a months-long process to clean up the toxic ash, hazardous waste and charred debris, state and federal officials told CNN. Only then can home and business owners rebuild.

The work to identify and clean up hazardous waste could start as soon next week, an Environmental Protection Agency official told CNN. The EPA will be joined by California state agency CalRecycle in overseeing much of the clean-up work, officials said.

Charred hazardous waste and large debris must be cleared by professional crews, and the underlying soil needs to be treated to remove toxic chemicals that burned into it.

“It’s not the same as ‘I’m going to go in with a shovel and clear out the mud from the flood,’” said Patricia McIlreavy, president and CEO of nonprofit Center for Disaster Philanthropy. “The level of devastation is beyond.”

The Eaton and Palisades fires are the first and second-most destructive in Southern California history. “The Palisades fire alone is the size of Manhattan; just imagine the debris,” McIlreavy said.

“It’s going to be an enormous undertaking.”

The hazardous waste clean-up alone could take three to six months, an EPA official told CNN. And this is just the first step before homeowners and government officials can return to properties to start clearing non-hazardous debris, which could take many more months to finish.

About 500 EPA workers will work with the state to start clearing hazards like compressed gas cylinders, paint solvents, pesticides, fertilizers and ammunition, regional FEMA administrator Robert Fenton, Jr. announced Wednesday.

The EPA will work with law enforcement to safely dispose of large lithium-ion batteries destroyed in the fire, like those in electric vehicles and home power banks that store energy from solar panels. Once damaged, these big batteries pose a major safety risk.

“This is going to be one of the biggest cleanups with regard to lithium-ion batteries,” the EPA official said. They need to be treated like unexploded munitions because of their volatility. Batteries damaged by fire or salt water can explode and can take a long time to put out because of the lingering chain reaction inside the battery – something that also causes them to occasionally reignite.

Officials are working “swiftly” to complete its first phase of hazardous debris removal so that families can return to their properties as soon as possible, said California Environmental Protection Agency Sec. Yana Garcia – who oversees the state’s equivalent of the federal EPA.

“We’re aware of the desire for folks to come in and return their properties,” Garcia told CNN.

Who pays?

Once the EPA is done with their work, debris removal crews with heavy equipment like excavators, skid steers and hauling trucks will demolish and haul away the rest of the rubble.

“All structural ash and debris will be removed from the property down to the foundation,” said Cory Koger, a water program manager with the US Army Corps of Engineers who helped oversee debris removal after the 2023 Maui wildfires.

Standing walls and burned trees that are in danger of falling are also removed, Koger said in an email interview.

Debris removal typically takes between one to four days per land parcel, depending on the size. Metal and concrete are typically rinsed and recycled. Other debris that can’t be recycled is moved to a landfill, Koger said.

Homeowners are responsible for paying for debris removal. Debris removal is typically covered by fire insurance, but insurance companies have been pulling out of California and other states exceptionally prone to wildfires or hurricanes.

“It comes down to what are your circumstances and can you remove it,” said McIlreavy, the CEO of the disaster nonprofit. Some homeowners “may find it harder to recover from the fire than others.”

If the cost of damages exceeds an insurance policy, FEMA can step in to cover the gap. FEMA also helps cover debris removal when it poses an immediate threat to public health and safety, a FEMA spokesperson said.

But large, unstable debris isn’t the only thing that poses a risk to human health. Burning houses and cars release toxins, plastics and heavy metals like lead into the air, soil and water. The miniscule size of these toxins mean they can travel into a person’s bloodstream and lungs, posing serious health risks, particularly to people who already have cardiovascular disease.

Wearing gloves, masks, long sleeves and pants to keep ash from settling on skin or hair is essential; but even with these protections, people who are pregnant, are children, are elderly or have pre-existing conditions shouldn’t come into contact with toxic ash because of the heightened risk.

A recent fire with similar destruction in an urban area – homes, businesses, cars destroyed and buildings reduced to ash – was the Maui fire that tore through Lahaina in August 2023. The US Army Corps crews sprayed down contaminated ash with water and sealed it tightly in plastic before disposing of it in a debris site so it could not escape into the air and water. It was a clear sign of how toxic the remains of violent fires are.

[ötzi]

Once they scrape your lot could you park an RV on it?

[old goat]

The risk of enormous losses from natural and unnatural disasters is the price we pay for the "security", comfort, and abundance of modern urbanized society. The more you have, the more you have to lose. But there's no going back, not with 8B+ people on the planet.

We can't afford to build housing that burns in an instant. How can we afford fire resistant structures? One thing for sure, the fires will leave more homeless people in California.

[MultiVerse]

"To all the badass first responders thank you for working tirelessly to put out these fires! Some incredible work is being done by these pilots and workers on the ground and the city of Los Angeles is so thankful for all your hard-work. We are the FORTUNATE ONES!"
-- John Fogerty

https://x.com/John_Fogerty/status/1878928257728561396

[LegoSkier]

Once they scrape your lot could you park an RV on it?

After the Tubbs fire a bunch of home owners did that in the half of my parent's neighborhood that burned down (Larkfield-Wikiup).

[Cono Este]

The whole state of California is the WUI, except for the central valley, which is a flood plain, and the Mojave Desert. Houses will inevitably be built on the urban edges--ie WUI--because there is nowhere else to build them. As you say, the only answer is to build housing to be as fire resistant as possible, but we can't even afford cheaply built housing and I don't see relocating the entire population of the state.
BTW--the proposed fire evacuation plan for the proposed Olympic Valley development is shelter in place. Hope that works out.

So crazy to hear about building costs when the land is so expensive. Everyone is california house rich, or nearly bankrupt, it needs to change.

It’s debatable, but without prop 13, and with true insurance costs etc..would be the best thing fo ,the ca housing mkt. if you can’t afford the taxes, insurance etc.

But then again, The lakefront in my Avatar, sunny side, 25mm easy, no insurance, and the guy obviously has the money.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Can someone translate the post above?


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[Bunion 2020]

Sorry, I don't speak Gibberish or Comma-tose.

[old goat]

Big article in the WAPO today about how LA FD has no hand crews. Isn't that what Cal Fire is for? I wonder if many municipal FD's have them. I realize the landscape of LA is not Chicago (which did burn down once when I was a kid.) And what would be the chances of hand crews surviving in that inferno? Educate me please?

[Meadow Skipper]

^ Well, that surprised me. I worked on the Angeles NF (fed) on a hotshot (hand crew) for a couple years way back when - Bear Divide Hotshots, and I remember that LA County had hand crews, mostly helicopter deployed, and LA City was pretty much engines. I don’t know anything about mutual-aid agreements between city and county and state, but I imagine the City just counted on the County and state and USFS when hand crews were needed. I’ve been hearing the LAFD (city) has been dealing with pretty severe budget problems, so that’s likely to be a factor. I imagine that LA City was just cruising on what had worked for them in the past, calling on County, CalFire (state), and USFS when needed.

What I’ve been seeing though is that hand crews wouldn’t have been useful as such when the wind was howling - way too active fire behavior, and in Palisades there didn’t look like enough open land to put in hand fire line. That fire, and probably the Alta Dena one was hopping from structure to structure. Hand crews are most useful, in a big way, in relatively open lands. Hand fire lines are rarely as wide as a city street and those city streets weren’t stopping shit.

So IMHO the correct blame game focus would be on lack of anticipation and poor structure hardening, rather than whether there were hand crews available. It’s sort of like retardant aircraft which aren’t useful when the winds get above 30 mph.

[MontuckyFried]

Haven't been able to keep up with the thread, but if it hasn't been said already, do we have any effected mags in the area that need any help?

My heart goes out to the people there. Absolutely tragic.

[bodywhomper]

I haven’t seen an accounting of maggots living in that area in this thread


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[MontuckyFried]

I haven’t seen an accounting of maggots living in that area in this thread

Oh good. Glad I haven't missed that then.

Weirdest thing though. Wife has family not too far from the area so I wanted to reach out and check on them. Was assuming they might at least be dealing with smoke or something (I was gonna offer for them to stay with us), but evidently they don't really seem to care and just chilling out like nothing's going on. They're retired FWIW. Is that kind of the vibe around town outside of the effected areas? I mean, I know life keeps moving and we all gotta keep on keepin' on, but I was just a bit surprised at the seeming total lack of concern.

[MultiVerse]

Big article in the WAPO today about how LA FD has no hand crews. Isn't that what Cal Fire is for? I wonder if many municipal FD's have them. I realize the landscape of LA is not Chicago (which did burn down once when I was a kid.) And what would be the chances of hand crews surviving in that inferno? Educate me please?

There are hundreds of Mexican firefighter/army personnel working alongside their American counterparts. Federal agencies are also helping, although it took weeks for them to really get going. Canadian firefighting planes, for example, arrived much faster than federal planes.

Apparently, the main issue with LA hand crews is because since WWII California relies on inmates who serve their sentences in prison “fire camp” to fill that role. Since the pandemic however, the number of inmates in the state’s penal fire camps has fallen dramatically. There are now only around 1,100 inmate firefighters available. Making the labor shortage worse, California licensing law bans people with criminal records from becoming full-time firefighters:

“I think everybody who … is risking their lives to save others is a hero, and that doesn’t matter whether you’re incarcerated or not,” .. “If that is who you are, that is your character and that is what you demonstrate in the middle of a crisis … the state of California owes you a debt of gratitude.”

https://www.cbs42.com/news/national/...than-30-a-day/