Wildfire ‘24

[MultiVerse]

As long as people are living in the Santa Monica mountains and the foothills surrounding the LA basin this is going to continue to happen to different extremes. No one is to blame but the people that allowed development and the people who keep rebuilding.

^^^^^It will happen again

The idea that development and developers are to blame for everything is such a weird take.

LA is one of the most expensive places to live in America, and it already faces a major housing shortage. Yet for some reason most of the people posting in this thread have taken on the bleakest point of view imaginable--that nothing can be done about suburban fires in California.

That type of thinking needs to be extinguished. We might as well be living in caves if we adopted your conclusion that nobody is at fault because this disaster was inevitable. That point of view only ensures the next fire will be worse with even more maximized damage and human suffering.

Rather than submitting to catastrophe, people can innovate & adapt instead. If most of the people here are nodding along with your desolate worldview then I'm happy to be the voice of reason

[406]

Back on the topic of home hardening. I was up there this weekend and seems I have 1/4" mesh on all my attic vents, but reading really want something in the mm size. Got a quote from an outfit that installs "fire rated vents", anyone have experience with these:
https://www.brandguardvents.com/vent-products/

For some reason they didn't include gutter guards, but thinking I can do those myself when I'm up there cleaning the gutters next weekend.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Maybe multiverse can stop the fires next time by standing on the beach and beating back the Santa Ana winds with his endless supply of hot air.

Dude argues with people about wildfires that have spent their entire careers working wildfires.


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[MultiVerse]

lol, not so much me as them arguing with LA's fire chief, Kristin M. Crowley. Either they're right and she's wrong, or she's right. Which one is it?

[MagnificentUnicorn]

You’re the one regurgitating online content and using it to support your argument, so they’re arguing with you.

Have you spent much time in the mountains and foothills surrounding the LA basin? I have. Unless there is mandatory hardening of structures and continuous removal of vegetation that is enforced this is going to keep happening.

Developers, zoning commissions and homeowners aren’t going to do this willingly because it’s cost prohibitive. So this will keep happening and we will all foot the bill. It has nothing to do with having a desolate world view, I’m realistic and lack the hubris that you seem to hold so dearly.


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[MultiVerse]

continuous removal of vegetation that is enforced this is going to keep happening.

Right, that's a point myself and others have made repeatedly. The main problem is the patchwork of agencies with competing interests requiring extensive environmental reviews before clearing can happen. Those reviews take an average of five years to complete.

That's obviously too long. So one of the biggest changes that needs to be made is the adoption of mandatory community-wide wildfire plans to replace ineffective patchwork plans.

Civilization takes work. And contrary to the idea we're incapable of solving these types of problems is that fact that we have solved these kinds of problems. One example is continuously managing the screwworm threat in America:


"For untold millennia, screwworms were a grisly fact of life in the Americas. In the 1950s, however, U.S. ranchers began to envision a new status quo. They dared to dream of an entire country free of screwworms. At their urging, the United States Department of Agriculture undertook what would ultimately become an immense, multidecade effort to wipe out the screwworms, first in the U.S. and then in Mexico and Central America—all the way down to the narrow strip of land that is the Isthmus of Panama. The eradication was a resounding success. But the story does not end there. Containing a disease is one thing. Keeping it contained is another thing entirely, ...

To get the screwworms out, the USDA to this day maintains an international screwworm barrier along the Panama-Colombia border. The barrier is an invisible one, and it is kept in place by constant human effort. "

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...panama/611026/

[ghosthop]

The real questions that need to be answered right now is how toxic is the soil and debris around the fire zones and how is that risk going to be mitigated.

I doubt the burn risk in the Santa Monica’s is going to resolved in any meaningful way. Just like Malibu, those that can afford to will rebuild and continue to burn. Arguing on the internet in a thread that is otherwise full of experienced takes seems like a real lack of insight.

[Bunion 2020]

The real questions that need to be answered right now is how toxic is the soil and debris around the fire zones and how is that risk going to be mitigated.

Toxic, and it will be remediated (sort of) with a lot of Money.

From 4 pages back

How do you clean up a fire disaster unlike any other in modern times? ‘It’s going to be an enormous undertaking’
Ella Nilsen


As the winds die down and firefighters seize control of the deadly infernos that have scorched more than 60 square miles, Los Angeles faces an unimaginable task before anyone can rebuild: Cleaning up the toxic, smoldering remains.

More than 12,000 structures have been destroyed, many of them homes and businesses that are reduced to ashy foundation footprints. Cars are charred to the frame, their tires melted into black puddles of rubber. Batteries powering EVs — popular choices in LA — threaten to reignite like unexploded munitions.

The remaining fires are drawing out an agonizing return for residents, and it will be a months-long process to clean up the toxic ash, hazardous waste and charred debris, state and federal officials told CNN. Only then can home and business owners rebuild.

The work to identify and clean up hazardous waste could start as soon next week, an Environmental Protection Agency official told CNN. The EPA will be joined by California state agency CalRecycle in overseeing much of the clean-up work, officials said.

Charred hazardous waste and large debris must be cleared by professional crews, and the underlying soil needs to be treated to remove toxic chemicals that burned into it.

“It’s not the same as ‘I’m going to go in with a shovel and clear out the mud from the flood,’” said Patricia McIlreavy, president and CEO of nonprofit Center for Disaster Philanthropy. “The level of devastation is beyond.”

The Eaton and Palisades fires are the first and second-most destructive in Southern California history. “The Palisades fire alone is the size of Manhattan; just imagine the debris,” McIlreavy said.

“It’s going to be an enormous undertaking.”

The hazardous waste clean-up alone could take three to six months, an EPA official told CNN. And this is just the first step before homeowners and government officials can return to properties to start clearing non-hazardous debris, which could take many more months to finish.

About 500 EPA workers will work with the state to start clearing hazards like compressed gas cylinders, paint solvents, pesticides, fertilizers and ammunition, regional FEMA administrator Robert Fenton, Jr. announced Wednesday.

The EPA will work with law enforcement to safely dispose of large lithium-ion batteries destroyed in the fire, like those in electric vehicles and home power banks that store energy from solar panels. Once damaged, these big batteries pose a major safety risk.

“This is going to be one of the biggest cleanups with regard to lithium-ion batteries,” the EPA official said. They need to be treated like unexploded munitions because of their volatility. Batteries damaged by fire or salt water can explode and can take a long time to put out because of the lingering chain reaction inside the battery – something that also causes them to occasionally reignite.

Officials are working “swiftly” to complete its first phase of hazardous debris removal so that families can return to their properties as soon as possible, said California Environmental Protection Agency Sec. Yana Garcia – who oversees the state’s equivalent of the federal EPA.

“We’re aware of the desire for folks to come in and return their properties,” Garcia told CNN.

Who pays?

Once the EPA is done with their work, debris removal crews with heavy equipment like excavators, skid steers and hauling trucks will demolish and haul away the rest of the rubble.

“All structural ash and debris will be removed from the property down to the foundation,” said Cory Koger, a water program manager with the US Army Corps of Engineers who helped oversee debris removal after the 2023 Maui wildfires.

Standing walls and burned trees that are in danger of falling are also removed, Koger said in an email interview.

Debris removal typically takes between one to four days per land parcel, depending on the size. Metal and concrete are typically rinsed and recycled. Other debris that can’t be recycled is moved to a landfill, Koger said.

Homeowners are responsible for paying for debris removal. Debris removal is typically covered by fire insurance, but insurance companies have been pulling out of California and other states exceptionally prone to wildfires or hurricanes.

“It comes down to what are your circumstances and can you remove it,” said McIlreavy, the CEO of the disaster nonprofit. Some homeowners “may find it harder to recover from the fire than others.”

If the cost of damages exceeds an insurance policy, FEMA can step in to cover the gap. FEMA also helps cover debris removal when it poses an immediate threat to public health and safety, a FEMA spokesperson said.

But large, unstable debris isn’t the only thing that poses a risk to human health. Burning houses and cars release toxins, plastics and heavy metals like lead into the air, soil and water. The miniscule size of these toxins mean they can travel into a person’s bloodstream and lungs, posing serious health risks, particularly to people who already have cardiovascular disease.

Wearing gloves, masks, long sleeves and pants to keep ash from settling on skin or hair is essential; but even with these protections, people who are pregnant, are children, are elderly or have pre-existing conditions shouldn’t come into contact with toxic ash because of the heightened risk.

A recent fire with similar destruction in an urban area – homes, businesses, cars destroyed and buildings reduced to ash – was the Maui fire that tore through Lahaina in August 2023. The US Army Corps crews sprayed down contaminated ash with water and sealed it tightly in plastic before disposing of it in a debris site so it could not escape into the air and water. It was a clear sign of how toxic the remains of violent fires are.

[MultiVerse]

Arguing on the internet in a thread that is otherwise full of experienced takes seems like a real lack of insight.

Folks are right to place a higher emphasis on arguments made by people with experience. That in and of itself doesn't mean they're right, though. The constant appeal to authority fallacy without regard for the argument itself is the real lack of insight

[raisingarizona13]

Maybe multiverse can stop the fires next time by standing on the beach and beating back the Santa Ana winds with his endless supply of hot air.

Dude argues with people about wildfires that have spent their entire careers working wildfires.


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I think ignoring him completely is best moving forward in this thread.

[Meadow Skipper]

^ This.

From the article quoted by Bunion:

The hazardous waste clean-up alone could take three to six months, an EPA official told CNN. And this is just the first step before homeowners and government officials can return to properties to start clearing non-hazardous debris, which could take many more months to finish.

A factor to consider is that the rainy season in California typically has started by now. A couple-three strong storms could really mess things up with events like landslides, besides just hampering the hazardous debris processes. An unbelievable amount of work ahead of them.

[406]

I'm watching the air attack from office window, house is in next section from evac warning zone
https://app.watchduty.org/i/40917

Thinking they will get it under control fast.

[Bunion 2020]

Best wishes man.

RE: What Meadow Skipper said, just what is needed, mudslides and flooding with a toxic cherry on top.

[J. Barron DeJong]

^ This.

From the article quoted by Bunion:

A factor to consider is that the rainy season in California typically has started by now. A couple-three strong storms could really mess things up with events like landslides, besides just hampering the hazardous debris processes. An unbelievable amount of work ahead of them.

I believe mudslides are one of the reasons clearing all the vegetation to try and prevent fires isn’t really a good option either. The vegetation holds the hills together.

[TBS]

I'm watching the air attack from office window, house is in next section from evac warning zone
https://app.watchduty.org/i/40917

Thinking they will get it under control fast.

Looks like they got it stopped at three acres.
There’s some stiff winds today- not gale force but enough for long-range spotting

[bodywhomper]

I've been doing trailwork lately in one of our urban canyons. It's a trail that runs in and out of a couple finger canyons right behind houses. There is a brush management zone that runs 100ft from the property line. According to the rangers I work with it is the City's responsibility to clear it and crews are supposed to thin the vegetation out to 50% density vs what was there, every two years. They seem confident it has been happening but I've been riding these trails for at least ten years and don't recall ever seeing any brushing done. The only sign of it is right below an apartment complex where there is a clear boundary as non-native ice plant has taken over the management zone with native veg below it.

As we've been working, a lot of homeowners have popped their heads over the fence to ask if we're doing that brush clearance. Many are pretty concerned given the fires up in LA even though we've had very moderate winds by comparison. But I think people are also remembering a few of the urban fires we've had like the May 2014 fire storm and 2017 Lilac fire that both burned a bunch of homes in North County. Even if it hasn't been windy it is super dry. We've only had one notable rain in the last nine months.

I really hope the county and cities have been keeping up with their brush management plans. I know that some of them were previously not keeping up because I had the federal grant applications at my desk. Several of them were deferred maintenance, ie, they were not able to keep up with their maintenance schedule.

Regarding private property debris removal, for Paradise, CA, FEMA funded ~$1B for PPDR. At that time, it was the single largest FEMA grant.

[Meadow Skipper]

Regarding private property debris removal, for Paradise, CA, FEMA funded ~$1B for PPDR. At that time, it was the single largest FEMA grant.

Pacific Palisades says “hold my beer.”

[Buzzworthy]

Folks are right to place a higher emphasis on arguments made by people with experience. That in and of itself doesn't mean they're right, though. The constant appeal to authority fallacy without regard for the argument itself is the real lack of insight

Your boss must have an enormous amount of patience to employ you. The only thing you know how to do is argue. Does he/she also know the sheer amount of time here spent arguing over nothing?

[dunfree]

I believe mudslides are one of the reasons clearing all the vegetation to try and prevent fires isn’t really a good option either. The vegetation holds the hills together.

highly related Santa Cruz sentinel article (ya, it’s a bad paper that’s circling the bowl, but still)
https://www.santacruzsentinel.com/20...-soil-erosion/

[MultiVerse]

highly related Santa Cruz sentinel article (ya, it’s a bad paper that’s circling the bowl, but still)
https://www.santacruzsentinel.com/20...-soil-erosion/

I believe mudslides are one of the reasons clearing all the vegetation to try and prevent fires isn’t really a good option either. The vegetation holds the hills together.

The goal should be to improve the natural resilience of native chaparral. Clearing invasive species and reducing fires favors chaparral. And unlike chaparral roots which help prevent mudslides, invasive non-native species tend to be grasses and other weeds which dry out more quickly further increasing fire risk while doing little to manage flood risk.

Managing coastal shrublands for fire mitigation is different than it is for managing inland forests. Contrary to the popular myth that fire suppression makes the situation worse, chaparral does not need fire to renew itself. Fire can be ecologically damaging to chaparral. Along with strategic fuel breaks, defensive space next to structures and removing deadwood, a list of management actions that work better with shrublands:



There's a lot of misconceptions and myths about managing fire risks in different types ecosystems. That's why looking to responders like Meadow Skipper for help and the restoration of order - thanks all for your service - but not necessarily how to implement substantial change addressing flammable landscapes

[bodywhomper]

Fires can be ecologically damaging to all ecosystems. Providing context to your odd post (which misconstrues the context of the figure), here’s the State/federal wildfire task force web page where that figure came from:

https://wildfiretaskforce.org/southe...nt-shrublands/


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[old goat]

Article in one of the papers today--people whose houses survived when their neighbors' didn't are returning to find their houses uninhabitable due to smoke and ash and presumed toxic chemicals in everything. So maybe hardening your house doesn't do a lot of good unless your neighbors do it too. Does insurance cover a house that is so heavily contaminated that it might just as well have burned down but didn't?

[evdog]

Does insurance cover a house that is so heavily contaminated that it might just as well have burned down but didn't?

Don't know the answer, but can guarantee you'll have a battle with your insurance company if you try to make that sort of claim.

[Cono Este]

All evidence I see is that the LAFD was underfunded. Firemen making repairs to their own stations, with their own tools etc..

Priorities matter, and priorities make a difference,

Once they had th assets for this “historic” wind, they snuffed out smaller fires like sunset quickly.

This is a game changer for california. .

[byates1]

This is a great tune