Wildfire ‘24

[TBS]

Has this turned into another Multiverse knows everything thread?

Isn’t every thread he starts posting in?

As long as people are living in the Santa Monica mountains and the foothills surrounding the LA basin this is going to continue to happen to different extremes. No one is to blame but the people that allowed development and the people who keep rebuilding.

This^^^

[MultiVerse]

Well, that's because people like MagnificentUnicorn decided to become experts only on female rejection

This^^^

Meadow Skipper's editorial, also posted prior, argues mitigation is possible, That people don't have to just throw up their hands and say there's nothing anyone can do, “What we need are a thousand things that tweak the environment in favorable ways such that we can prevent these eruptions.”

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...changing-times

[old goat]

A key ‘weakness’ in L.A.’s wildfire strategy went unaddressed for years, Post probe shows

In a memo that has not been previously reported, chief told city fire commissioners that L.A. relied almost entirely on overburdened “hand crews” from other jurisdictions to handle its brush fire emergencies

Two years before wildfires incinerated swaths of Los Angeles, the city’s Fire Chief Kristin M. Crowley identified “one significant area of weakness” in her department’s ability to contain wildfires. L.A. had no specialized wildland unit to respond to daily brush fires and scrape vegetation, dig ditches and do the other labor to ensure blazes did not spread or rekindle, she wrote on Jan. 5, 2023, asking for $7 million to assemble its own squad.

...

Yet as fire swept down from the Santa Monica mountains last week, L.A. still had no professional unit ready to aid in the initial attack, according to a Washington Post review of dozens of city and county records, hours of radio transmissions and L.A. fire commission transcripts, as well as interviews with more than a dozen firefighters and city officials.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/weath...dfire-defense/

That's the article I was referring to. You're missing Claymond's point, that there are plenty of hand crews in the area, just not employed by the City. The writer doesn't seem to get that in CA we have lot's of overlapping municipal and special districts, overlapping city, county, state, and federal responsibilities for fire and other things. It's not like eastern cities where govt, LE, FD, schools, roads are all under one entity. The article also speculated that maybe a city hand crew would have made sure a smaller Palisades fire didn't reignite, although I don't believe there's evidence that that's what happened.

[MultiVerse]

That's not the writer's opinion. Nor is it my opinion. That's the position of LA's fire chief, Kristin M. Crowley. She wrote a memo identifying a problem with the city's nearly complete overreliance on overburdened “hand crews” from other jurisdictions to bring needed muscle to its fire emergencies. It's all right there in the first paragraph. She specifically mentioned the need for hand crews to prevent fire from "rekindle"

[old goat]

Yeah agreed, the question is did overhead power lines cause the days earlier fire in the same area where the Palisades Fire started. People posted videos of smoke in the area days after the New Year's fire before the big main fire spread on Jan. 7. The posts & vids have since been removed after reporters tried to contact them

Now the conspiracy theories--there were posts and vids but now taken down. I'd be ashamed to make that argument.

lol, show one example of "pointing fingers" politically for these fires or apologize, Bunion.



Absolute nonsense. Don't get me wrong, I love it when your little voices argue with your imaginary friends but your responses are asinine

You need to take a step back and take a breath before you post again.

Ha, because I’m not getting paid to waste my time on it anymore? So I get to be kind of an asshole about it, as people here on TRG well know.

But here’s an article from the LA Times that really spoke to me. I might have gotten it here, and it might be paywalled, but it speaks to issue of the public being told numerous times over many years that wildfire is gonna be a problem. Stephen Pyne is the pre-eminent fire historian in the US, really really sharp guy, and Jack Cohen really knows his shit. The article is sort of a “well, we told you so” kind of thing. People either don’t listen or they forget pretty quickly.
https://www.latimes.com/california/s...changing-times

If there's one thing people in the fire prone part of California (every place that's not in the flood prone part of the state and some of them too) are aware of is fire. We hear about it and talk about and act on it constantly, with defensible space inspections, insurance cancelations, public safety power outages, signing up for warning systems. That doesn't mean that everything possible has been done. What keeps more from being done are the complications of the terrain and weather, the nature of the built environment, politics, and of course money, money and money. But not lack of awareness. The possibility of fire is something I and everyone I know thinks about every day most of the year. Not sure what someone from Missoula can tell LA about fire but maybe they can.

[MultiVerse]

Now the conspiracy theories--there were posts and vids but now taken down. I'd be ashamed to make that argument.

Once again, not my argument. That argument was made NYTimes reporters who saw the videos on social media and contacted the people who posted them for an interview. The people initially agreed to an interview but then took the videos down and went silent. Man, sad to see alzheimers cutting through like a lobotomy with old goat these days

[Meadow Skipper]

Now the conspiracy theories--there were posts and vids but now taken down. I'd be ashamed to make that argument.


You need to take a step back and take a breath before you post again.

Yeah on ^this but…

If there's one thing people in the fire prone part of California (every place that's not in the flood prone part of the state and some of them too) are aware of is fire. We hear about it and talk about and act on it constantly, with defensible space inspections, insurance cancelations, public safety power outages, signing up for warning systems. That doesn't mean that everything possible has been done. What keeps more from being done are the complications of the terrain and weather, the nature of the built environment, politics, and of course money, money and money. But not lack of awareness. The possibility of fire is something I and everyone I know thinks about every day most of the year. Not sure what someone from Missoula can tell LA about fire but maybe they can.

But ^this, and particularly the bolded part are kind of weak. IMO, the first part of that paragraph might apply to your own crowd, but IME (and I’ve fought fire all over the state and talked with locals…I’ve been a local) not all Californians (by a long shot) are as aware as you say. I have to say, otherwise homes would have been hardened and flammable vegetation in towns would be greatly mitigated. But about Missoula - MSO is the home of the USFS Missoula Fire Sciences Lab, and Jack Cohen is highly educated, experienced, and respected nationwide, and the forest service is nationwide.
https://research.fs.usda.gov/firelab

Now in my experience, a lot of people in a certain locales dismiss and/or discount and/or ignore advice or information or experiences from people outside their locale. I’ve seen this quite a bit in California, just like in your post. Make of that what you will, but not to pay close attention to what Jack Cohen says about fire because he works in Missoula is a mistake, as Palisades has discovered. You can only attribute a certain amount of the problem to weather and terrain. The rest is people, who don’t always choose awareness…or care for info and advice from ‘outsiders.’

[Meadow Skipper]

…Man, sad to see alzheimers cutting through like a lobotomy with old goat these days

Time for you to stfu and take a break.

[MultiVerse]

Look, you everyone else commenting for the past couples of pages have been churlish and off-point. Your arguments have been the equivalent of disrespecting dogs because they don't have gills. Maybe you should take a break, asshole

[teleee]

Look, you everyone else commenting for the past couples of pages have been churlish and off-point. Your arguments have been the equivalent of disrespecting dogs because they don't have gills Maybe you should take a break, asshole

Yea because you know waaaaay more about fire than everyone else.


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[MultiVerse]

Not true. I quite literally read an article and afterwards posted it in good faith in response to a question. Everything that followed had little to do with the argument or the article. Just responses to imaginary arguments they made up in their own heads.

In reality, this is all just people arguing against a memo written by LA's fire chief, Kristin M. Crowley. The disagreement here is with her, not me. There's been a lot of that going around. Someone else posted a video only to have another person freak out without even watching it.

[jono]

Do you really need to get defensive about an opinion which is only connected to you by a Google search? Ease up.

[Meadow Skipper]

Look, you everyone else commenting for the past couples of pages have been churlish and off-point. Your arguments have been the equivalent of disrespecting dogs because they don't have gills. Maybe you should take a break, asshole

You really don’t know how, much less why, to shut the fuck up.

And for the record - this is going to bother you quite a bit - you don’t know what you’re talking about. Take it from someone that does deeply understand this topic.

[MultiVerse]

Ease up is good advice Jono. Too bad it's directed in the wrong direction

You really don’t know how, much less why, to shut the fuck up.

And for the record - this is going to bother you quite a bit - you don’t know what you’re talking about. Take it from someone that does deeply understand this topic.

lol, I made the same argument here earlier as the editorial you signed off on the previous page. That's been more or less my position from the get go, So I may or may not know what I'm talking about but if that's the case then the same goes for you

[John_B]

Give it a break MV. Every current events thread in the Padded Room doesn't need to devolve into you bickering with people.

[Meadow Skipper]

I have to say, I feel really good about my position in an argument when the other person descends into name calling.

[MultiVerse]

Agreed, it doesn't need to devolve. Folks should try to discuss things in good faith like I do

I have to say, I feel retry good about my position in an argument when the other person descends into name calling.

Same here. Except in this case your position mostly amounts to name calling

[Meadow Skipper]

Agreed, it doesn't need to devolve. Folks should try to discuss things in good faith like I do



Same here. Except in this case your position mostly amounts to name calling

Lol

[bodywhomper]

Another red flag warning for most of SoCal starting tomorrow morning through most of Tuesday.

Around the toe of the San Gabriels, there are many fire breaks, “raceways,” and previous fuels reduction areas. I am certain that the county had not been able to maintain the existing treatments because of funding. The county also had/has plans for increasing treatments, like thinning and crushing of chaparral downslope of their fire breaks which did not occur because of funding.

The same goes for a lot of San Diego. San Diego (city and county) and several of the other cities in the county have brush clearance plans. These are plans are often already approved (including environmental clearance). Funding for both initial entry treatment and maintenance treatments is challenging to obtain.

I’ve probably posted this before here, but I’ve heard one of the retired state fire marshals wishing that they had thought more clearly about state-level regulatory private property structural setback requirements in suburbs, like in the 60’s and 70’s to present.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

What is MV talking about? I’m an expert only on female rejection?

If everyone in the room thinks you’re an insufferable douchebag MV it’s probably because you are. If you can’t see this you’re completely lacking self awareness. Go bother some other people



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[old goat]

Yeah on ^this but…


But ^this, and particularly the bolded part are kind of weak. IMO, the first part of that paragraph might apply to your own crowd, but IME (and I’ve fought fire all over the state and talked with locals…I’ve been a local) not all Californians (by a long shot) are as aware as you say. I have to say, otherwise homes would have been hardened and flammable vegetation in towns would be greatly mitigated. But about Missoula - MSO is the home of the USFS Missoula Fire Sciences Lab, and Jack Cohen is highly educated, experienced, and respected nationwide, and the forest service is nationwide.
https://research.fs.usda.gov/firelab

Now in my experience, a lot of people in a certain locales dismiss and/or discount and/or ignore advice or information or experiences from people outside their locale. I’ve seen this quite a bit in California, just like in your post. Make of that what you will, but not to pay close attention to what Jack Cohen says about fire because he works in Missoula is a mistake, as Palisades has discovered. You can only attribute a certain amount of the problem to weather and terrain. The rest is people, who don’t always choose awareness…or care for info and advice from ‘outsiders.’

Thank you for educating me on Jack Cohen. I stand corrected.
Truckee has been requiring defensible space inspections as well as home hardening inspections. It hasn't been forcing people to do the recommended actions for the latter. The town has a very well developed fire emergency plan. It has been clearing roadsides to maintain escape routes. I have mentioned other stuff previously. When it comes to LA type fires the burden is on individual owners to do home hardening. Few people seem to have done much, other than the easy stuff like screening vents. I don't think this is due to ignoring the problem though. A lot of it is money. Palisades aside the most fire prone areas in the state--the western foothills of the Sierra and the Coast Range--are the last affordable housing in the state. The folks there don't have the money. A lot of it is fatalism--it's not that we don't think the big one is coming, it's that we think it is but that nothing we can do will protect our houses. Ironically, the LA fires and the terrifying video we've seen may make people LESS likely to do much hardening, thinking that nothing will stop that. In places that do have the money, hardening has to compete for funds with decarbonizing projects. Do I reside the lower six feet of my house or do I replace the big wall of single pane windows. (Or do I get a generator to get me through multiday public safety outages.)

The utilities are slowly trying to underground lines but the cost of doing that is enormous, and at the same time they have to invest in additional capacity to meet the all electric car mandate.

If anything gets Californians to do more it might be the insurance companies. Perhaps the state will require them to offer coverage--with rates reflecting the risk--but only to people who harden their houses. That's a lot of work on a lot of houses at a time when construction labor is tight and about to get tighter. In our area it takes 2 years or more to get a contractor. What's the wait going to be like if everyone has to harden their house.

[evdog]

The same goes for a lot of San Diego. San Diego (city and county) and several of the other cities in the county have brush clearance plans. These are plans are often already approved (including environmental clearance). Funding for both initial entry treatment and maintenance treatments is challenging to obtain.

I've been doing trailwork lately in one of our urban canyons. It's a trail that runs in and out of a couple finger canyons right behind houses. There is a brush management zone that runs 100ft from the property line. According to the rangers I work with it is the City's responsibility to clear it and crews are supposed to thin the vegetation out to 50% density vs what was there, every two years. They seem confident it has been happening but I've been riding these trails for at least ten years and don't recall ever seeing any brushing done. The only sign of it is right below an apartment complex where there is a clear boundary as non-native ice plant has taken over the management zone with native veg below it.

As we've been working, a lot of homeowners have popped their heads over the fence to ask if we're doing that brush clearance. Many are pretty concerned given the fires up in LA even though we've had very moderate winds by comparison. But I think people are also remembering a few of the urban fires we've had like the May 2014 fire storm and 2017 Lilac fire that both burned a bunch of homes in North County. Even if it hasn't been windy it is super dry. We've only had one notable rain in the last nine months.

[Bunion 2020]

This one's been making the rounds lately. From a 1961 documentary on LA Wildfires, "Design for Disaster."
https://www.instagram.com/dtlaartsdi...l/DE_jsTLx9QW/

Thx for that, 64 years ago.

Humans are really bad at recognizing a disaster return period that is even 1/2 as long as their life expectancy be it flood, fire, avalanche or hurricane. I fully expect that all that was destroyed will be rebuilt with lip service to defensible space and survivable construction methods and then people will bitch about how much that costs and back to the same old same old.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

^^^^^It will happen again


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[I Skied Bandini Mountain]

Connected yesterday with a longtime friend and past coworker, with longtime ties to Altadena and Pasadena. In our common friends and acquaintances - His sister lost her home in Altadena, along with her husband's music and guitar collection, master tapes, and vintage comic book collection. They're now living with the mom. Another longtime coworker and friend, lost their home, it was one of the first to go in the foothills. They're in their 70's and now living in a friends extra bedroom in some courtyard apartment, just like they were over 45 years ago. He is battling cancer and will now have to rebuild and it will probably kill him. Another longtime friend and past girlfriend of his, previously a writer for the LA Times and LA weekly back in the day, now an author, lost her longtime home and all her writings. Even though she has insurance, she doesn't know the first thing about building a home and will likely sell, but has no idea where she'll go.

Those are just in our common acquaintances, and he says it's worse than anyone can imagine or convey.

Just a few stories of humble, gracious, and non-material people who are in a lot of pain right now.