Antiwork

[Conundrum]

Lessons on who gets to redline with Montuckey.

[neufox47]

I fired an antiworker yesterday.


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[MontuckyFried]

Well, you can’t ignore the power dynamic.

Lol. That's EXACTLY what they're trying to instill from the get go. Screw that. I know who the Pres of the company is. We have the same job. He just made it to the top. Good for him. But now that he's up there, he's pulling out the ladder from under him straight up with these sorts of contracts. I've done tons of them over the years. This one was just by FAR the most egregious. Some outfits absolutely set up this "power dynamic" by making the workers scared to ever leave, ever fall behind on work, or even take them to court if they get screwed over. "Well, it's all right there in the contract you agreed to!"

They can tell you to fuck off and it will cost them nothing. The next guy will take a swing at the contract and give it a go. Why would they sacrifice their position for an - at best - unknown? What’s their upside? Also, The managers responsible for your contract aren’t even playing the same game that the CEO is.

Their upside is getting a professional who will save their ass legally. Quite literally. That is WHAT I do. I am PAID to analyze and negotiate contracts. I do a shit ton of due diligence for monster acquisitions. Legal research, etc. That's what makes it hilarious they'd try and pull one over on me.

Great quote by the famous oil well fireman, Red Adair, who had probably the biggest well fire company out there. His services were also NOT cheap, but they were by far about the best. He said, "If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." So, THAT'S the upside of me over a rookie. I've been at it for a long time and am goddam good at what I do.

Sometimes you just can't come to terms. If the other side is intent on burning through fools and taking maximum advantage of them the best you can do is not be one of them. There are other opportunities.

YUP! That was my take ultimately. I since learned via Glassdoor and some forums that this particular company values insane speed over quality. They don't give a shit how good the work is, just how fast it gets cranked out (for maximum profits of course). That will absolutely bite them in the ass as it has for many who ended up with massive (and undetected by inexperienced people who were rushed). I've reviewed countless court cases where just that very thing has happened. Again, it's my job to prevent that. Gives me the heebie jeebies when a company tells me they're willing to assume the risk for the sake of speed. I've never relented since it's MY name on the work and it's MY ass that will get put up on the stand when shit goes down.

That's why they are a functioning company and you are looking for a job. If you were smart you would have taken the job, and if things went south, sue them for any employment violations.

But alas, you are just going to make a point only to yourself that no one will hear. Way to stay on point of the thread though.

False. I have work. I'm just trying to transition to a different segment of the industry where I see a better future. Also, FWIW it wasn't W-2 employment. This is a 1099 contractor position. Again, another way for them to distance themselves legally. Just like Amazon and all their "contract" delivery drivers. Screw Jeff Bezos too. It's all the same mindset from some of these dicks.

[MontuckyFried]

Lessons on who gets to redline with Montuckey.

ANYBODY can redline. Especially for professionals who are literally in the business of negotiating contracts. Haha. I've done it plenty of times, and it's never been a problem. Especially when all I'm doing is trying to add clarification and further definition. My wife's even done it with school districts. We are all our own best advocates. If a company doesn't allow it with WILD ass non-compete agreements, then they're not worth working for. Plain and simple.

[MontuckyFried]

Non-competes are out of control in America for real though. It's across all industries, so not just mine. Watch this:

[Cisco Kid]

I refused to sign a non compete with a sales company that said if we parted for any reason I could only sell hamburgers or used cars 100+ miles away. Totally unenforceable. Bossman said "I knew it was unenforceable but we would take you to court and make your life miserable and expensive while we lost." There were Mob connections with the people who owned the Co and is strikes me that the MO sounds current. I got the job anyway.

[m2711c]

Their upside is getting a professional who will save their ass legally. Quite literally. That is WHAT I do. I am PAID to analyze and negotiate contracts. I do a shit ton of due diligence for monster acquisitions. Legal research, etc. That's what makes it hilarious they'd try and pull one over on me.

YUP! That was my take ultimately. I since learned via Glassdoor and some forums that this particular company values insane speed over quality. They don't give a shit how good the work is, just how fast it gets cranked out (for maximum profits of course). That will absolutely bite them in the ass as it has for many who ended up with massive (and undetected by inexperienced people who were rushed). I've reviewed countless court cases where just that very thing has happened. Again, it's my job to prevent that. Gives me the heebie jeebies when a company tells me they're willing to assume the risk for the sake of speed. I've never relented since it's MY name on the work and it's MY ass that will get put up on the stand when shit goes down.

you learned of this subsequent to sending in your application? perhaps doin' yer proper "due diligence" before hand would help you avoid these unpleasant situations...




fact.

[riser4]

I'm giving Austin the benefit of the doubt on this one. I know a lot of you are dog piling him for whatever reasons, possibly having nothing to do with what he's complaining about.

[MontuckyFried]

you learned of this subsequent to sending in your application? perhaps doin' yer proper "due diligence" before hand would help you avoid these unpleasant situations...

fact.

Lol. I have submitted hundreds of resumes over the years so do not conduct deep dives into everybody before tossing my name into the hat for roles they're advertising. Yes, I look up enough about each company to draft a proper cover letter and have something relevant to talk about in case I get the chance to talk to a recruiter. Do more digging if an interview results from it. But you better believe I scrutinize everything further before signing ANYTHING and onboarding. Which I did in this case. Well, guess what? This company DOES have a history of suits against them. For what, pray tell? Not paying people in my exact role for all the work they did. In one case I read about, guy sued them for the $40K in work for a project he billed and they refused to pay. He won the case and got half the money owed since lawyers took about the other half. My intuition was correct. They have all these bullshit terms in there based on prior experience with fucking people over and trying to get away with it. I would've been willing to work for them anyway IF they would agree to an improved, more mutually beneficial contract but no dice. Oh well. I wouldn't want to work for these assholes anyway if that's the game with them.

I'm giving Austin the benefit of the doubt on this one. I know a lot of you are dog piling him for whatever reasons, possibly having nothing to do with what he's complaining about.

Thanks. If anything, I'm starting to sound more and more like Bernie Sanders these days! Haha. Workers be getting royally screwed over more and more these days thanks to ever-expanding contract terms. Thanks, lawyers!

For real, though. Imma post up some gems from this contract when I get a chance and see if ANYBODY here would be down with it all as is. No strikes, amendments, revisions, or redlining of any sort. I highly doubt it. Like I said before, I've done plenty of jobs with reasonable NDAs, non-competes, etc. If it's relevant to the project and limited to it, that's fine. But you can fuck right off if you're trying to basically say I can't work in my field effectively nation-wide for 2 years after we part ways. That is but one example that's in there.

[Mustonen]

It being a 1099 makes a little more sense…. Wasn’t sure how you’d slip in “we might not pay you” clauses into a w-2 position.

To be clear, I’m not saying you should have signed it or that it wasn’t bullshit, but I’m not remotely surprised they told you to fuck off, ESPECIALLY since that’s basically what the CEO was saying he didn’t hesitate to do.

[XXX-er]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...ment-1.7123853

somewhat appropo of this thread

[Mustonen]

A long time ago I had a boss (CEO) reflect privately to me that some people seemed to think the business was here to give them a nice place to work. I’ve thought about that a lot since then… not in terms of agreement or disagreement but to what degree that was the role of any company. It’s not very capitalist to suggest that a measure of success is how many people can be sustained with a reasonable standard of living through your efforts as a business leader.

It’s something we don’t seem to talk about enough, especially if AI and automation and robotics replace a substantial number of jobs. It’s also a big part of the disconnect between this “anti work” movement and employers. Workers expect the employer to provide meaningful employment, opportunities to be productive, and means to pursue lives outside of work in spite of the employer also having a profit motive, and capitalistic business principals have drilled into business leaders heads that workers are at best an operational expense and at worst a necessary evil.

Minimum wage laws and workers rights are tangential at best but consume all the bandwidth.

Of somethin.

[MontuckyFried]

It being a 1099 makes a little more sense…. Wasn’t sure how you’d slip in “we might not pay you” clauses into a w-2 position.

Yeah, for sure. But learning more about their business model and service contracts to the clients, it's even worse than at first glance. Basically, they enter an agreement for a given project saying it will take X amount of days to complete and they'll hold to it. That is pretty impossible in my line of work being that you have ZERO idea how long something will take until you dive into the research and see what comes up. It can take a few days to bang out OR it can take a year or two on some of my craziest cases. According to how they do things, if they agreed to say, 5 days on the job, but in reality it took a month to complete due to all the usual complications (and that's hitting it hard), they'd only have to pay you for those 5 days and everything else would be pro-bono. However, if you fuck up BECAUSE you turned in what should've been a month's work of research, calculations, etc. cramming it into a week, welp. Now they don't have to pay you at all because they're gonna ding you for it. It completely favors the client and them, and only serves to screw the worker. 100%. And as I've learned through court cases against them, they have milked a LOT of free work out of contractors, have been busted on it, but have only doubled down by way of the new contractor agreements.

To be clear, I’m not saying you should have signed it or that it wasn’t bullshit, but I’m not remotely surprised they told you to fuck off, ESPECIALLY since that’s basically what the CEO was saying he didn’t hesitate to do.

Well, here's what's funny. Unless I'm misreading you, the guy said kind of the opposite. He said he would only go forward if HE got to make sure the contracts worked for everyone, but if they weren't willing to play ball, then he would turn it down. My point being is that he holds himself to a completely different standard in regard to contract negotiation than what he demands out of the people below him. Let me put it this way. A LARGE part of my job would be negotiating major contracts on behalf of the clients. If I were to even entertain a contract as heinous their very own, I would definitely be fired and probably sued. Haha.

[Mustonen]

Well, here's what's funny. Unless I'm misreading you, the guy said kind of the opposite. He said he would only go forward if HE got to make sure the contracts worked for everyone, but if they weren't willing to play ball, then he would turn it down. My point being is that he holds himself to a completely different standard in regard to contract negotiation than what he demands out of the people below him. Let me put it this way. A LARGE part of my job would be negotiating major contracts on behalf of the clients. If I were to even entertain a contract as heinous their very own, I would definitely be fired and probably sued. Haha.

We’re talking past each other a little. The point isn’t whether or not contracts are negotiated, the point is that he holds a hard line and is willing to walk away from any negotiation that doesn’t tilt in his favor. He don’t play like that either. He sets the terms and has no patience for terms being dictated back to him. From their response they didn’t expect for you to not walk away, and if he’d had the slightest interest in you and your negotiation it sounds like he wouldn’t have respected you much if you hadn’t. It all seems pretty internally consistent to me.

Apparently it’s worked for him, at least so far. I’ll join you in hoping he falls on his face, though.

[XXX-er]

I havent had to play hardball in 18 yrs but in the big corporation nothing I ever did seemed to make a hell of a lot of difference, I was just numbers on a branch operating report where I was good enough for them to keep me around

Since then I worked the Job-ettes as I called them, small company maybe only 1 guy, short term, low pay, low responsibility and I don't need the money but its something to do maybe a new experiance

BUT I always took them seriously cuz I could see 1st hand what happened or what would happen if I didn't and if I couldn't be serious i shouldnt have been there

I helped a fellow skier /carp put in windows he said " 19cm of new I can't believe you showed up "

well it was hard but I said i would

[gravitylover]

I'm so glad I work for myself. The pay can be great if I get off my ass or it can be sufficient if I float and send some emails. Even when I do get off my ass to make it better I still have all the freedom to do cool stuff along the way.

[Bunion 2020]

I'm so glad I work for myself. The pay can be great if I get off my ass or it can be sufficient if I float and send some emails. Even when I do get off my ass to make it better I still have all the freedom to do cool stuff along the way.

x2. I really have enjoyed building my own business for the past 10 years. When I walk away I will enjoy it even more. Currently swamped but when the payments roll in next month I will forget about all the time staring at maps.

[MontuckyFried]

We’re talking past each other a little. The point isn’t whether or not contracts are negotiated, the point is that he holds a hard line and is willing to walk away from any negotiation that doesn’t tilt in his favor. He don’t play like that either. He sets the terms and has no patience for terms being dictated back to him. From their response they didn’t expect for you to not walk away, and if he’d had the slightest interest in you and your negotiation it sounds like he wouldn’t have respected you much if you hadn’t. It all seems pretty internally consistent to me.

Aww yes. I see what you're saying now. Yes. You're absolutely correct. He's one of those pricks that makes sure EVERYTHING works in his favor and screw everybody else, right? It's like he's taken a page out of some of the behemoth corporations out there in that it's a numbers game. If you can get score enough high dollar jobs, then they're willing to take the heat in court for the odd suit here and there. They literally do not care about doing bad business. Of course this means they have zero regard for the person they're inevitibly going to throw under the bus for the failures, ie me. Perhaps if I were more cut throat in business, I would've made it further, but I'm just not built that way. I care about people under my leadership, as well as protecting my clients all the same and helping them succeed best I can.

Apparently it’s worked for him, at least so far. I’ll join you in hoping he falls on his face, though.

Haha, thanks. Will keep you all posted if that ever happens. Not likely any time soon since they're pretty big and been at it a long time, BUT they may just piss off the wrong people if they keep pulling these stunts. Will hopefully catch up to them someday.

[MontuckyFried]

x2. I really have enjoyed building my own business for the past 10 years. When I walk away I will enjoy it even more. Currently swamped but when the payments roll in next month I will forget about all the time staring at maps.

That's awesome. I'm happy for you. You REALLY figured out a great angle there. Keep on kicking ass out there and hopefully one day you can somehow stick it to "the man."

[jono]

A LARGE part of my job would be negotiating major contracts on behalf of the clients. If I were to even entertain a contract as heinous their very own, I would definitely be fired and probably sued. Haha.

That's the place where a lot of companies go penny wise/pound foolish: every time you convince someone to demonstrate their inability to do the job by accepting bad terms you get even less than you pay for.

You want an accountant who doesn't know his own worth? A project manager? Engineer? Financial adviser? If the job's output feeds your bottom line you don't want people who don't understand why their work is valuable.

Most decision-makers don't know what they're buying. If you know how to make them money, then be ready to explain it to them. And be prepared to churn through until you find the ones that understand.

[Mazderati]

I fired an antiworker yesterday.

What is your definition of antiwork?

[jono]

I've done plenty of jobs with reasonable NDAs, non-competes, etc. If it's relevant to the project and limited to it, that's fine. But you can fuck right off if you're trying to basically say I can't work in my field effectively nation-wide for 2 years after we part ways. That is but one example that's in there.

I'd be interested to see what you're talking about here. There's a sometimes fuzzy line to walk claiming a person is a 1099 contractor and not a W2 employee if the non-negotiable contract doesn't let them offer their particular services to other clients. The company can end up having to pay back taxes and benefits. Having contractors declared employees might also impact the ability to wriggle out of paying.

That's not a comment on this specific situation, I'd just be interested to see the discussion of those factors on the bleeding edge of contracts. As a contractor.

[MakersTeleMark]

I'd be interested to see what you're talking about here. There's a sometimes fuzzy line to walk claiming a person is a 1099 contractor and not a W2 employee if the non-negotiable contract doesn't let them offer their particular services to other clients. The company can end up having to pay back taxes and benefits. Having contractors declared employees might also impact the ability to wriggle out of paying.

That's not a comment on this specific situation, I'd just be interested to see the discussion of those factors on the bleeding edge of contracts. As a contractor.

The whole concept of a 1099 contractor is that they are fungible. That's why his position is laughable.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

But Austin is the expert when it comes to contract negotiations


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[Mustonen]

The whole concept of a 1099 contractor is that they are fungible. That's why his position is laughable.

Which is why a broad non-compete is so remarkable. I dunno what’s actually there and what isn’t, but it’s certainly apropos to the theme of the thread which includes worker pushback against what historically has been overreach and bullying by large corps.

I’m not denying that it’s fun to pile on Montucky, either. He says the contract was littered with terrible things but only calls out the non-compete and the opportunity for non-payment, which are clearly egregious if they’re as presented. Perhaps he is expert at analyzing contracts, but if he sent back a highly marked up version with no directed dialog instead of leading with “look, I’d love to work together, but I’m not going to sign something that doesn’t let me work and I’m not going to work without getting paid, what’s your wiggle room on those points?” with somebody there who had both agency and something to gain by getting him onboard, he might not be the master negotiator he fancies himself.