Antiwork

[Foggy_Goggles]

"1099 employee" yeah, no. Non-complete for something other that fuck you money such that you can whether the storm, no. Terms of employment that require legal review and establish friction from the jump, no.

Ya'll like to ride Montucky for being him but what does he have wrong here? He's got his way of sounding like its him against the world and not really coming clean with the whole story but really?

But on the other side of the coin, Austin, throw us a bit of bone? It's Oil and Gas and contracts and up and coming with a bit of future? Anything else?

[Supermoon]

The fact that 1099 even exists is a travesty, let alone how it has been deployed into the workforce. But even still, there’s no way a 1099 can be served a non-compete, right? Non-disclosure, sure.

[jono]

There are a ton of legit uses for 1099 contractors. And sometimes it makes sense (for both parties) for a contractor to perform some of the same services that a W2 employee might otherwise. Similarly, a limited non-compete can even be mutually beneficial.

But these days the population of people who don't read contracts is large and there's money to be made taking advantage of them. When did you last read a TOS or a EULA?

And while we're at it, how do you make a YouTube video skip to 1:18?

[Conundrum]

A quick call to his state’s DOL and industrial commission would clear up W2 vs 1099. Neither like companies avoiding taxes and work comp insurance through 1099 work and have black and white definitions of what constitutes W2 employment.

He could take those definitions back with his redlined contract. That would be negotiating from a strong position.

Or turn them in. Every company loves pulling the sheets back for a DOL audit.

Or maybe they within their rights and he was right to walk away from it.

[jono]

Does it vary much by the state, or is the state DOL just the easier tool to use? I'm used to this being pretty much driven by federal law, but most of my clients are in other states.

[skaredshtles]

<snip>
Ya'll like to ride Montucky for being him but what does he have wrong here? He's got his way of sounding like its him against the world and not really coming clean with the whole story but really?

But on the other side of the coin, Austin, throw us a bit of bone? It's Oil and Gas and contracts and up and coming with a bit of future? Anything else?

Narrator: "In an ironic turn of events, the person lamenting this type of horseshit voted for the VERY people who support said horseshit. In *EVERY* election."

I elect MF as the TRG poster child for cognitive dissonance.

[californiagrown]

The fact that 1099 even exists is a travesty, let alone how it has been deployed into the workforce.

Why do you say that? Seriously.

I am looking at switching jobs to be a part time 1099 contract employee. I would go on my wife's insurance which is shockingly cheap and as a 1099 i would be making a larger take-home income (all taxes and benefits considered)... but the real reason is so that i could moonlight in the same industry for myself which would be a nice way to ease into opening my own shop. EVERYONE in my industry has a no moonlighting policy for work that they compete for (which is totally understandable) so this seems like the best way to ease into starting out on my own.

[Foggy_Goggles]

edit: I suck. Somebody link the Texas Independent Contractor Agreement

IC is great, but follow the rules. I actually thing that the economy will be moving in this direction. Employing people has increasingly restrictive rules. Being an employees has decreasing value outside of unemployment benefits which you pay on yourself as an IC.

Their is no allegiance between an employer and employee any more. Less and less people get health insurance, paid time off, retirement that the employer pays for and so on.

Take the paycheck rate, double in, have your on corporation and get your life back.

[Supermoon]

Why do you say that? Seriously.

I am looking at switching jobs to be a part time 1099 contract employee. I would go on my wife's insurance which is shockingly cheap and as a 1099 i would be making a larger take-home income (all taxes and benefits considered)... but the real reason is so that i could moonlight in the same industry for myself which would be a nice way to ease into opening my own shop. EVERYONE in my industry has a no moonlighting policy for work that they compete for (which is totally understandable) so this seems like the best way to ease into starting out on my own.

I don't have an issue with contract work (I do a large amount of contracting myself), I just don't like companies passing off the liability onto individuals. As was stated above, the 1099 is a way to avoid payroll taxes, unemployment insurance, worker's comp, etc. I think workers should get protection regardless of how they are brought in. Limited 1099 makes sense, but it's never been used that way as far as I can tell.

[Foggy_Goggles]

ScaredSkittles, don't make it like that. All the politicians suck. We all are the trying to take advance of the cards we are delt.

[jono]

edit: I suck. Somebody link the Texas Independent Contractor Agreement

IC is great, but follow the rules. I actually thing that the economy will be moving in this direction. Employing people has increasingly restrictive rules. Being an employees has decreasing value outside of unemployment benefits which you pay on yourself as an IC.

Their is no allegiance between an employer and employee any more. Less and less people get health insurance, paid time off, retirement that the employer pays for and so on.

Take the paycheck rate, double in, have your on corporation and get your life back.

Facts.

Also, do yourself a favor (if the client hasn't already done it) and include the basic requirements for a 1099/not a W2 right in the contract. One of my clients did that and when they started trying to manage my time like an employee it made for an easy reference as to why we weren't going to do that.

CAdude: there is no such thing as a 1099 employee. You're either a 1099 contractor or a W2 employee.

[MontuckyFried]

The whole concept of a 1099 contractor is that they are fungible. That's why his position is laughable.

You don't even know what I do exactly, so why is it laughable? The vast majority of my field is comprised of contractors, and for this particular line of work it actually makes sense. You're typically brought on for projects. The client (a renewables energy company in this case) signs a contract with with the broker/service provider who then contracts with the labor to actually make the deals happen. This is the norm in this line of work and is not what I'm riled up about this time. I've negotiated plenty of my own terms for providing contract work. Whether it's labor rates, per diem, overall expectations, and yes, defining exactly WTF the "Area of Interest" is that I'm not supposed to work in for a while after the contract terminates.

Which is why a broad non-compete is so remarkable. I dunno what’s actually there and what isn’t, but it’s certainly apropos to the theme of the thread which includes worker pushback against what historically has been overreach and bullying by large corps.

Exactly.

He says the contract was littered with terrible things but only calls out the non-compete and the opportunity for non-payment, which are clearly egregious if they’re as presented. Perhaps he is expert at analyzing contracts, but if he sent back a highly marked up version with no directed dialog instead of leading with “look, I’d love to work together, but I’m not going to sign something that doesn’t let me work and I’m not going to work without getting paid, what’s your wiggle room on those points?” with somebody there who had both agency and something to gain by getting him onboard, he might not be the master negotiator he fancies himself.

How do you know how it went down? I gave you all just the most basic of cliff notes. There was absolutely a respectful, professional dialogue. Sorry if I didn't provide recorded phone calls and lengthy e-mails discussing contract terms to more fully illustrate my point.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Exactly. I have this couple decade relationship with a high end homebuilder in this valley. He is a bit of an ass, but he pays well and the projects are interesting. But he wants to treat the subs like employees and I won't have it.

For two reasons, one my workmans comp and liability want the IC agreement and contract in place and two, fuck you, I've leave at 3pm and I'm neither feeling guilty or telling you about it.

[MontuckyFried]

Narrator: "In an ironic turn of events, the person lamenting this type of horseshit voted for the VERY people who support said horseshit. In *EVERY* election."

I elect MF as the TRG poster child for cognitive dissonance.

You don't need to make this political. The entire country has been on this shitty trajectory for decades. NO administration has improved upon it. Not Obama. Not Biden. And for the last time, I've never voted for Trump either, but who I voted for is irrelevant. Take it to poliass if you want to be like that to me. This thread is so we can vent a bit about the state of corporate America, is it not?

[MontuckyFried]

That's the place where a lot of companies go penny wise/pound foolish: every time you convince someone to demonstrate their inability to do the job by accepting bad terms you get even less than you pay for.

You want an accountant who doesn't know his own worth? A project manager? Engineer? Financial adviser? If the job's output feeds your bottom line you don't want people who don't understand why their work is valuable.

Most decision-makers don't know what they're buying. If you know how to make them money, then be ready to explain it to them. And be prepared to churn through until you find the ones that understand.

NAILED IT!!! To me, if ANYBODY accepted the terms of this agreement wholesale, then it would certainly be a reflection on their skills to begin with.

[Foggy_Goggles]

I also think it is funny to say Austin has no leverage when he is flexing the ultimate leverage that a contractor has...not...signing...the fucking...contract.

All he is saying is, "looked like a good opportunity but turns out it wasn't because the contract was dog shit, they wouldn't negotiate, so I walked away". To me, this is everyday work stuff. It is transactional and situational. At one price, with a certain set of conditions, it makes sense. At another price, with different conditions, it doesn't.

I'm in a similar situation today with a potential customer. I can't agree to even an informal Memorial Day completion date because lead time on cabinets has been 8-10 weeks lately and you haven't made the selection and I need 4 weeks minimum after that. And I don't control that. So either they will agree and understand or they won't.

[MontuckyFried]

There are a ton of legit uses for 1099 contractors. And sometimes it makes sense (for both parties) for a contractor to perform some of the same services that a W2 employee might otherwise. Similarly, a limited non-compete can even be mutually beneficial.

But these days the population of people who don't read contracts is large and there's money to be made taking advantage of them. When did you last read a TOS or a EULA?

Nailed it again!!!

[MontuckyFried]

I also think it is funny to say Austin has no leverage when he is flexing the ultimate leverage that a contractor has...not...signing...the fucking...contract.

All he is saying is, "looked like a good opportunity but turns out it wasn't because the contract was dog shit, they wouldn't negotiate, so I walked away".

Thank you! At least YOU seem to get it! Nobody had anybody over a barrel. They didn't want to play ball. I walked. And judging by the lawsuits against them that were reflective of EXACTLY my concerns, I do believe I made the right call. There will be better opportunities.

Like I said a few days ago after thing went south, it felt GOOD to walk away. Some of us have been around long enough to be able to sniff out a turd from miles away. Nobody has to put up with abusive contracts.

[Conundrum]

Does it vary much by the state, or is the state DOL just the easier tool to use? I'm used to this being pretty much driven by federal law, but most of my clients are in other states.

Would be Fed rules but easier to get action from state DOL locally. For reasons Foggy is saying like direct management of time and supervision, many companies are blurring the line between 1099 and W2 to save on all sorts of employment expenses. Whether Austin’s contract falls into this situation who knows…but could be an angle. I think he’s smart to walk from it. But the righteousness of sending the CEO podcast link with his redlines is why people are laughing. Those intermediaries give two shits.

[MontuckyFried]

I think he’s smart to walk from it. But the righteousness of sending the CEO podcast link with his redlines is why people are laughing. Those intermediaries give two shits.

Nah. It was one last very intentional F U in the most polite manner possible. You are correct that the intermediaries don't give a crap. However, those people DO need to be made aware why they can't attract/keep top talent. She even told me in a phone call that the non-competes threw other seasoned people for a loop saying "Don't worry! That totally won't be a problem." Then why's it in black and white? And if it's in the contract that one chooses to execute, then THAT ranks higher legally than "Well, your honor. Ms. Dingleberry told me they'd be cool." Seems she forgot this little tidbit from the contract: "Any representations, oral statements, promises, or warranties made by any party that differ in any way from the terms of this Agreement shall be given no force or effect."

[Foggy_Goggles]

But the righteousness of sending the CEO podcast link with his redlines is why people are laughing. Those intermediaries give two shits.

Maybe. Well the bills keep coming in and the future is uncertain, it can question whether you should speak your mind. That said, I've been surprised by the respect I've been given for speaking my mind when I wasn't sure it was the right think to do.

It's strange. It seems employers/bossmen think they want workers than can keep under their thumb but they don't respect them. When you call them on their bullshit and stand up for your self, they respect that. It can lead to other opportunities and is critical to calling your own shots and running the show.

Now I'm not a nasty gram email guy. I'm more of face to face type. But sometimes you don't get to chose that. Was is passive aggressive? No idea. Saying what's on your mind and being accountable for it seems preferred to stewing in your own shit.

[Conundrum]

Agreed but for real effect, send it to the CEO. Those recruiter/HR people didn't change a thing in their hiring process.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Agreed but for real effect, send it to the CEO. Those recruiter/HR people didn't change a thing in their hiring process.

Ooops. I missed that. Plus he kind of admitted he was dickish about it. Are HR people still primarily yes women for C Suite that try and keep the company compliant?

I haven't been to an interview or worked for a corp in almost 25 years.

[MontuckyFried]

Agreed but for real effect, send it to the CEO. Those recruiter/HR people didn't change a thing in their hiring process.

I was actually quite tempted to do just that, but I think I might be better off just going on my own way, leaving them in my rearview. We do all run in the same circles though, so if I ever see him at an event, I might not be able to help myself. Haha. Again, upon discovering the suits against them, I don't think I want anything to do with them any longer. FWIW, the conversation wasn't just HR. It was between several people including the project director who has a direct line to the top. The bottom line is that their contract is non-negotiable. Oh well. Moving on.

[AdironRider]

It feels like Foggy and Austin both see at least one of the benefits of being a contractor in that you dictate when and where you work, not the other way around. Say what you want about your personal feelings about 1099 vs w2 work, but certainly most can see that can be considered a benefit to some.

In terms of antiwork, my office is currently at the last stages of an office remodel which has resulted in us all primarily working remote for the last 4 months. Some have taken the opportunity to fuck off, and others have continued to work hard. Probably about a 50/50 split. Two of the hard workers got promotions during this timeframe and its become a bit of a "thing". We were always a hybrid office so not really some radical change but resulted in like 1 day a week in office vs. 2-3 previously. We return to normal in a week and the antiworkers are getting quite vocal about it. One of the antiworkers threatened to quit today due to them not getting promoted and having to return to hybrid. It has been interesting to see just how vocal people will get about refusing to even try. I honestly can't imagine people having the balls to do that even just a few years ago.