50 years to the day

[ex-powderbroker]

even if they had a source the govt is in complete disarray with resignations.

the fact is that it seems like many alarms didn’t go off. sensors by the wall. video cameras. drones and balloons. it’s not like they just shot the lens on one camera.

[dunfree]

Eastern Russia? The part that used to be China? Not many people trace their ancestry to that Russian colony that was acquired via force of arms.

Alaska as Jewish colony was a Michael Chabon book

[boltonoutlaw]

Iran apparently no longer going to get their $6B.

Might be prudent for US residents in Iran to start packing

[LongShortLong]

Hard to get a number, but 10% of Americans can trace their ancestry to eastern Russia?
https://www.science.org/content/arti...americans-rev2

I'm saying the "but my long long dead 'relative' I never knew lived here once" is a bullshit argument.

[MultiVerse]

That's not the argument I made though, is it? The majority of Jews in Israel are not from Europe. They're from the Middle East including what was once Palestine, now Israel. It's a lot more complicated than Europeans settling in America taking over native lands. Jews always existed in Palestine alongside Arabs.

In the early 1800s the place was mostly empty. Less than five hundred thousand people with an 18:1 Arab to Jew ratio. Then in the late 1800s Jews started emigrating back to Israel fleeing anti-Semitism in Europe with encouragement from ruling Ottoman bureaucrats. Prior to WW1 Arabs and Jews saw themselves as Ottoman subjects, by that time an 8:2 Arab to Jew ratio.

The clashes between Arab and Jews didn't really become violent until after WW1 when the British took over and the ratio became 7:3 Arab to Jew. At that point positions hardened between both sides. The Arabs began propagating anti-Jewish propaganda from Germany and hostilities increased between the two groups.

[LongShortLong]

If you or your parent or your grandparents lived there, those would be successively weaker arguments. If you or your parent or your grandparents were forced from your home (or homeland), well that's a stronger argument, and you may nurse a grievance. If some people were forced out so long ago that no one alive remembers anyone, well we should tend to leave long dead grievances in the grave. Certainly not use ancient grievances as excuses for new grievances or graves.

Some folks will never drop a grievance, especially if it happened to them. The kids and grandkids? Their elders' grievance is someone else's grievance, and minimal motivation toward violence. Same with the religious or ethnic arguments, sure it's a motive and might tip someone on the edge, but few people are primarily driven by those.

I'm opposed to violence. So I oppose arguments that support violence. If the purpose of the argument is to understand motives, I'm ok with that. Understanding motives is useful on a path to peace.

Since Hamas' terror attack, Israel has acted to damage its own future. They are bombing right into Hamas' trap. Creating new grievances far in excess of that needed for justice. I advise a course correction.

[LongShortLong]

That's not the argument I made though, is it? The majority of Jews in Israel are not from Europe. They're from the Middle East including what was once Palestine, now Israel. It's a lot more complicated than Europeans settling in America.

Ok then maybe I missed your argument. What is it?

eta: I see your legitimate grievances statement, and not sure what we disagree on.
/eta

If you're arguing it's ok for Jews to live in Israel, I fully agree. But no historical justification is needed, and that history argument is feeble. I further argue it's ok for everyone living anywhere to continue doing so (I don't favor ethnic or religious distinctions). If you're arguing it's ok for anyone to displace others living somewhere, the circumstances of the displacement must be carefully considered. Many times, including in living people's lives, people have been unfairly displaced, including by force.

If you're trying to make some divine-right argument, recognize that if we're to get along on this planet, those arguments must be set aside.

[MontuckyFried]

Since Hamas' terror attack, Hamas has acted to damage its own future

FIFY. The retaliatory strikes are nobody's fault but Hamas'. Nobody would be getting themselves bombed right now without Hamas running into Israel acting like a bunch of psychopaths whilst launching an endless barrage of rockets. I'm sick and tired of people acting like Israel drew first blood.

Only ONE group of assholes went around murdering/beheading/raping/desecrating countless civilians last weekend. What's the last time you've seen that kind of behavior? The IDF goes out of their way as best as possible to avoid civilian casualties. Hamas was targeting civilians and straight terrorizing them in the most brutal, inhumane fashion possible. THAT'S who's at fault. Nobody else.

Put yourself in a similar situation as the (innocent) Palestinians. Lets say it was Mexico that was occupying us and treating us less than optimally, even egregiously. Is there ANYTHING that could ever compel you as a human being to gain liberation via full on blood bath of civilians by your hands? Could you bring yourself to blow babies brains out in their cribs? To gun down civilians trying to flee? To go into a music festival and mow down entire crowds, brutally raping the women? Could you behead people and kick their bodies just for funzies? Would you be celebrating and cheering your victory? These scumbags are the worst of the worst. Less than human. How else could you explain such behavior?

I'm not saying you think they're justified or anything. Nobody here is. However, the culturally narcissistic idiots here in the West seem to believe they can understand where these animals are coming from, or that they can be reasoned with or negotiated. People here are clueless as to who, or rather what the enemy is. I was around for the party in Iraq and ISIS' shenanigans are still fresh in my brain. I remember. Apparently many do not. So circling back... The blood of the civilians in the Gaza Strip are is NOT on Israel's hands. It lies squarely with Hamas. That's it. Don't make excuses or place blame on the victims.

[MultiVerse]

Ok then maybe I missed your argument. What is it?

eta: I see your legitimate grievances statement, and not sure what we disagree on.
/eta

If you're arguing it's ok for Jews to live in Israel, I fully agree. But no historical justification is needed, and that history argument is feeble. I further argue it's ok for everyone living anywhere to continue doing so (I don't favor ethnic or religious distinctions). If you're arguing it's ok for anyone to displace others living somewhere, the circumstances of the displacement must be carefully considered. Many times, including in living people's lives, people have been unfairly displaced, including by force.

If you're trying to make some divine-right argument, recognize that if we're to get along on this planet, those arguments must be set aside.

If you or your parent or your grandparents lived there, those would be successively weaker arguments. If you or your parent or your grandparents were forced from your home (or homeland), well that's a stronger argument, and you may nurse a grievance. If some people were forced out so long ago that no one alive remembers anyone, well we should tend to leave long dead grievances in the grave. Certainly not use ancient grievances as excuses for new grievances or graves.

As I wrote in a previous post about 700,000 Palestinians were displaced in 1948. They did not leave voluntarily. Their grievances are legitimate. You haven't seen me at any point in this thread deny the legitimate grievances of Palestinians. Jews went from being a minority group in Palestine to a majority with their own country named Israel. Who could blame Palestinians their grievances?

My argument is that colonizers is not an accurate framing. It's not a biblical argument. Arabs and Jews have been fighting over the same land for thousands of years including in modern history prior to 1948. It's true many emigrated from Europe which increased the Jewish population, but Jews didn't just show up after WWII after being gone for millennia. They were always in Palestine/Israel. They fought a war and the Jews won.

I'm not saying might makes right. I'm not trying to argue Jews have more of a connection to Israel than Palestinians, only that the colonization narrative is false and allows for, in polite academic terms, the removal of Jews from Israel. If you want peace you can't just look at a narrow view of history and lay responsibility at the feet of Jews as colonizers.

[Rideski]

no, aljazeera does not do both sides, because it is state owned (Qatar). It’s a good place to get a tinted view of Palestine

I was aware of that, you know, since it's in bold print when you log on. What are your sources?

[LongShortLong]

I'm not saying might makes right. I'm not trying to argue Jews have more of a connection to Israel than Palestinians, only that the colonization narrative is false and allows for, in polite academic terms, the removal of Jews from Israel. If you want peace you can't just look at a narrow view of history and lay responsibility at the feet of Jews as colonizers.

We agree and are arguing semantics and picking nits. Narrow views are out. I don't see that being a colonizer justifies removal. Very few would be left on Earth (some remote islands maybe?). Being a colonizer means only injustices are or were perpetrated, and those should be addressed.

Aside - If you did claim might makes right, I'd consider the argument. The current world order is that preferred by the nation most prepared to commit violence, savage violence. I don't think that's a coincidence.

[Doremite]

Some context on the colonizer accusations:

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgr...ist-enterprise

If Jews and Palestinians are both native to Israel, how did Palestinians end up in cramped swaths of land? British to blame??

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgr...ur-declaration

Or the UN??

https://www.adl.org/resources/action...resolution-181

Edit - now back reading and realizing multiverse has explained all of this already.

[Viva]

....

[ex-powderbroker]

Global day of terror called for tomorrow. Fart in the wind? let’s hope so, nobody needs this shit.

[Cono Este]

As I wrote in a previous post about 700,000 Palestinians were displaced in 1948. They did not leave voluntarily. Their grievances are legitimate. You haven't seen me at any point in this thread deny the legitimate grievances of Palestinians. Jews went from being a minority group in Palestine to a majority with their own country named Israel. Who could blame Palestinians their grievances?

My argument is that colonizers is not an accurate framing. It's not a biblical argument. Arabs and Jews have been fighting over the same land for thousands of years including in modern history prior to 1948. It's true many emigrated from Europe which increased the Jewish population, but Jews didn't just show up after WWII after being gone for millennia. They were always in Palestine/Israel. They fought a war and the Jews won.

I'm not saying might makes right. I'm not trying to argue Jews have more of a connection to Israel than Palestinians, only that the colonization narrative is false and allows for, in polite academic terms, the removal of Jews from Israel. If you want peace you can't just look at a narrow view of history and lay responsibility at the feet of Jews as colonizers.

I’ll add some selfish thoughts as a quasi Brit.

Under British rule, there were quotas for immigrants. In hindsight, not a terrible idea. But Jewish militant groups like the Irgun, began bombing Brit’s like at the king David hotel in 1946 . Kinda pisses me off after the whole, we helped beat the shit out of Hitler for you thing.

A totally violent history. But I still side with them overall a d this now about killing Isis scum. We’ll see what position the other Arab states take soon.

[J. Barron DeJong]

https://x.com/armanddoma/status/1712...sR_NcRK2VkCfkg

[rideit]

I’ll add some selfish thoughts as a quasi Brit.

.

“EGREGIOUS FOUL: SELF CENTERED, IRRELEVANT PREENING; YOU MUST FORFEIT THE BALL”

[gravitylover]

Evacuate! What country alerts the enemy to an incoming missile or, in this case, an invasion and where it's going to happen? It's kind of the same as what country would supply water, electricity and aid to flow into the enemy country?

[rod9301]

Evacuate! What country alerts the enemy to an incoming missile or, in this case, an invasion and where it's going to happen? It's kind of the same as what country would supply water, electricity and aid to flow into the enemy country?

The same country that cuts off water and electricity supply and they will bomb many innocent people

Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk

[TBS]

Essay from a major in the IDF Reserves

I am now going to defend my country against enemies who want to kill my people. Our enemies are the deadly terrorist organizations that are being controlled by Islamic extremists.

Palestinians aren’t the enemy. The millions of Palestinians who live right here next to us, between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan, are not our enemy. Just like the majority of Israelis want to live a calm, peaceful and dignified life, so do Palestinians. Israelis and Palestinians alike have been in the grip of a religious minority for decades. On both sides, the intractable positions of a small group has dragged us into violence. It doesn’t matter who is more cruel, or more ruthless. The ideology of both have fueled this conflict, leading to the death of too many innocent civilians.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/13/o...smid=url-share

[Toadman]

Maybe Iran can donate some of that $6 billion to the Palestinians to rebuild their city after Israel levels it.

[J. Barron DeJong]

This was a great, detailed, long thread about how Israeli goes about conducting it’s strikes:



https://x.com/jayndonde/status/17117...sR_NcRK2VkCfkg

One thing I’d pushed back on though is he says you can’t judge the morality just by looking at the number of Israeli’s killled vs. Palestinians. And I agree with that to an extent - it matters whether those killed were combatants, terrorists, civilians, etc. and what the strategic goals were. (I don’t like writing that…)

But a threshold is being set to determine whether a strike should take place; whether the casualties will outweigh the strategic goals of safety for Israel. And that threshold is a choice, it can be raised or lowered.

The current threshold has led to about 34 times as many Palestinian women and children being killed as Israeli women and children. That may be a justifiable choice, but it is a choice.

[riser4]

Essay from a major in the IDF Reserves



https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/13/o...smid=url-share

Right? I don't live there. I'm not Jewish and I'm not Palestinian. I can agree with it all I want, and it's what I want to hear, but somehow I'm anti-Semitic or making excuses for Hamas if I have that opinion?

[JimmyCarter]

This was a great, detailed, long thread about how Israeli goes about conducting it’s strikes:



https://x.com/jayndonde/status/17117...sR_NcRK2VkCfkg

One thing I’d pushed back on though is he says you can’t judge the morality just by looking at the number of Israeli’s killled vs. Palestinians. And I agree with that to an extent - it matters whether those killed were combatants, terrorists, civilians, etc. and what the strategic goals were. (I don’t like writing that…)

But a threshold is being set to determine whether a strike should take place; whether the casualties will outweigh the strategic goals of safety for Israel. And that threshold is a choice, it can be raised or lowered.

The current threshold has led to about 34 times as many Palestinian women and children being killed as Israeli women and children. That may be a justifiable choice, but it is a choice.

Vlad Vexler gets into this a bit.
Break orgs into three groups:
1. Those that actively kill civilians/non-coms (hamas)
2. Those that do not try to kill civilians
3. Those that actively try to not kill civilians

Israel has to be in 2, which means then you do get a bit into the body counts- so even if you’re not targeting non-combatants, what’s an acceptable number of civilian deaths.

And it’s going to be high here.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Semitic people are both Jewish Israelis and Palestinian Muslims. It’s kind of an outdated term, but it applies to all Jews and Arabs.

This situation is horrible and Hamas deserves annihilating, the people of Israel and it’s occupied territory, Jews, Muslims and Christians deserve better from their leaders.


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