Running, Anyone...?

[benk]

Yeah, I tried training utilizing nose breathing but it left me gasping for air. I know I should slow down but there’s only so much time to get miles in. My understanding is with time, runny/dry nose sorts itself out. Gonna give it a try for the next training ramp

[skiSilent_skiDeep]

Been on a scrambling kick lately.

Nice one Dan, love this kind of stoke. Twin Peak via Stairs gulch is a straight up ass kicker in an absolute stunner setting.
since your into scrambing lately, heres acouple favorite routes in the Twin Peaks Wilderness:
stairs gulch via the zig-zag goat track route up the imposing (upper) headwall slab (hikers right).
if your feelin it, finish the gulch with a Twins Triple Traverse.
if youre feeling superhuman and up for the challenge, the Twins Triple Double. 16+/-miles and ~12.5K (will have to dig up the old gps tracks to confirm).
my favorite is the scramble up Storm Mtn - North Ridge Direct. exit out ferg cyn, or traverse and out bonkers, or traverse to Twin peak and out.

[Viva]

I hyperventilated 10hrs into my first 100k after thinking I needed to breath deep at altitude.

This is where time spent training, and occasionally racing, will eventually help you to sort out who you are as a trail runner and what your needs are to achieve your goals.

With time, you'll gain an intuitive feel for heart rate, metabolism, breathing, etc., and you'll just know what pace is appropriate for a given moment / condition. You'll just fucking know. Really.

But for now you're gonna chase a few dead ends. It's a nature of things.

I also produce copious snot during exercise. It never sorted itself out.

Never did the nose-only-breathing thing much. There was no advantage there for me.

Good luck, and have fun!

[Dantheman]

Nice one Dan, love this kind of stoke. Twin Peak via Stairs gulch is a straight up ass kicker in an absolute stunner setting.

Stairs really is stunning. I did Robinson the weekend before and Stairs was so much better. I'm kind of baffled that it's not the go-to route to Twins. There's nothing in Stairs that's more technical than the ridge to the east summit after you hit the top of Robinson. I'm planning to tick off some more classics this summer while my shoulder heals up.

stairs gulch via the zig-zag goat track route up the imposing (upper) headwall slab (hikers right).

Got any more beta on this route? Never even heard of it. Everything right of the creek looked sketch!

if your feelin it, finish the gulch with a Twins Triple Traverse.

I'm planning on doing the full Cottonwood Ridge traverse soon. I was actually hoping to do it this weekend, but there's just enough chance of thunderstorms in the forecast to give me pause. For now the plan is to drop my bike at Alta, ascend Twins via Lisa Falls, CRT to Alta, then enjoy an easy coast down to my car.

if youre feeling superhuman and up for the challenge, the Twins Triple Double. 16+/-miles and ~12.5K (will have to dig up the old gps tracks to confirm).

So, that's what, Triple Traverse as an OAB?

my favorite is the scramble up Storm Mtn - North Ridge Direct. exit out ferg cyn, or traverse and out bonkers, or traverse to Twin peak and out.

Hadn't heard of that one before, either. Looks a little hateful in places, but worth it: https://www.stavislost.com/hikes/tra...erguson-canyon

[Cruiser]

I'm still nose breathing all the time when I run and I was having such success that I started doing it on my hikes this summer too. Great mindfulness aid and a fine way to force me to stay in a lower heart rate zone so that I can get out longer and more often. Lotta snot rockets tho, so there's that...

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Nose breathing is too inconsistent for me to use as a tool. But I can gauge my effort by my breathing rate. If I can stay relaxed taking 1 breath (in and out) every 8 steps I'm generally in zone 1. 1 breath every 6 steps is low zone 2. 1 relaxed breath every 4 steps is high zone 2. Once my breathing gets strained at that rate I'm generally in zone 3. Of course all these effort levels come with other sensations, so it's not like I'm constantly counting my breaths, but I've tested it against a heart rate monitor and it is pretty much spot on. Doesn't pertain to running down steeper trails.

[skiSilent_skiDeep]

Stairs really is stunning. I did Robinson the weekend before and Stairs was so much better. I'm kind of baffled that it's not the go-to route to Twins. There's nothing in Stairs that's more technical than the ridge to the east summit after you hit the top of Robinson. I'm planning to tick off some more classics this summer while my shoulder heals up.

agree on the lack of popularity of stairs. shocking that very few people go beyond the first waterfall ~ 1/4 mile in.
also, the cruiser (North) ridge between robinson aka bonkers and stairs is another gem. down low, peel off trail at the smallish meadow just up past the broads bridge, then short thrash up to gain the ridge. always mountain goats chillin on the ridge proper, more of a nursery for the nannies and kids. pretty cool.

Got any more beta on this route? Never even heard of it. Everything right of the creek looked sketch!

the zig-zag ledge system (yellow line sketch) up the super slab is quite obvious when clickin around in google earth. mostly class 4, maybe a move or two of easy 5. the 'leap of faith' exit requires a large step or jump across a chimney system intersecting the ledge. blow it and yer goin the full 900'+/- down the slab. its super easy but quite heady. also one of the ledges up there is dubbed land-mine ledge, due to collection of decades worth of avi control work explosive shrapnel.

what it looks like from the base of the super slab.

I'm planning on doing the full Cottonwood Ridge traverse soon. I was actually hoping to do it this weekend, but there's just enough chance of thunderstorms in the forecast to give me pause. For now the plan is to drop my bike at Alta, ascend Twins via Lisa Falls, CRT to Alta, then enjoy an easy coast down to my car.

nice, thats a fantastic traverse. hmm id nix the bike return, instead drink beer at oktoberfest.

So, that's what, Triple Traverse as an OAB?

Twin Peaks Wilderness Infinity Loop (or Triple Double)
goes like this: park at mill b south TH. jog down the 190 to stair gulch, up stairs to twin peak, triple traverse, down tanners, jog down the 210 to Lisa Falls, up Lisa Fall to Twin Peak-west, triple traverse, out mill b south (or broads). pro tip: drop(hide) a watermelon in the creek before heading down the 190.

Hadn't heard of that one before, either. Looks a little hateful in places, but worth it: https://www.stavislost.com/hikes/tra...erguson-canyon

first time up the many route finding nuances leading to moments of hate keeping it more in the type 2 fun category, as demonstrated by Stav. second time up is full on type 1 fun.

[Dantheman]

the zig-zag ledge system (yellow line sketch) up the super slab is quite obvious when clickin around in google earth. mostly class 4, maybe a move or two of easy 5. the 'leap of faith' exit requires a large step or jump across a chimney system intersecting the ledge. blow it and yer goin the full 900'+/- down the slab. its super easy but quite heady. also one of the ledges up there is dubbed land-mine ledge, due to collection of decades worth of avi control work explosive shrapnel.

Ahhh, that makes more sense. Definitely looks heady!

nice, thats a fantastic traverse. hmm id nix the bike return, instead drink beer at oktoberfest.

Have you been to Oktoberfest lately? 30+ minute lines to buy outrageously overpriced beers and stand shoulder-to-shoulder with obnoxious drunk gapers. Hard pass.

Twin Peaks Wilderness Infinity Loop (or Triple Double)
goes like this: park at mill b south TH. jog down the 190 to stair gulch, up stairs to twin peak, triple traverse, down tanners, jog down the 210 to Lisa Falls, up Lisa Fall to Twin Peak-west, triple traverse, out mill b south (or broads). pro tip: drop(hide) a watermelon in the creek before heading down the 190.

Burly!

[OldLarry]

Does anyone else deal with a nose that starts running like a faucet the second that they start exercising? I try to nose breath and it lasts like 5 seconds before I can't stand sucking in and blowing out snot on every breath. I feel like I lose more fluid out my nose than I do from sweating.

Not really close to an athlete like you guys but I Farmer hanky every 1/4 mile or so when running. I have the instinct to do it qu’en I’m just walking down the street in and given city and do if nobody is around-


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[carpathian]

I just nose-breathed my way on down Ali’i this morning, it was pleasant ! Early enough to avoid heat bombing my self . Do it again tomorrow , here for 3 week run/work block …

[sb]

OldLarry!

GF is rocking the Ragnar Appy this weekend.

Black loop today.

[Cruiser]

I just nose-breathed my way on down Ali’i this morning, it was pleasant ! Early enough to avoid heat bombing my self . Do it again tomorrow , here for 3 week run/work block …

Heck yeah! Jealous for sure

[Dantheman]

Cottonwood Ridge traverse in the books. 9 hours, 10.3 miles, 9,700 vert, almost entirely relentless 3rd/4th class scrambling with frequent serious exposure. Hardest thing I've done in a long time.

Getting up Lisa Falls to start the traverse was a bit of a junkshow. Lost a good half hour to a major routefinding error fairly low down, then managed to get both feet wet right after that, then lost more time navigating around a surprisingly large amount of snow that had formed super sketch snow bridges everywhere.

While trying to squeeze past some of said snow I had a bad wet greasy foothold slip while holding onto a big jug with my right hand. I wasn't quite ready for it and the shock load subluxed my *good* shoulder. In the moment it didn't feel too bad and I really didn't want to go back down Lisa so I pushed on. It felt pretty fine until the descent off Superior. Pretty sore now, but I think it's basically fine.

Despite the issues, Lisa was amazing and the ability to refill water high up was critical. I ended up running out just as I hit Alta. Would have run out somewhere on the ridge otherwise which would have sucked big time.

The ridge mostly went to plan, albeit a bit slower than I had hoped. I wasn't entirely prepared for just how relentless it is. So much work just trying to stay calm and focused through miles of no-fall terrain, knowing the hardest part is at the very end (the Monte Cristo crux is no joke). What you're truly in for really hits on the summit of Dromedary when you're already over an hour in and have sooo far to go still.

Pretty stoked, what a day. A full WURL is hard to comprehend.

[climberevan]

Dan, that looks pretty amazing. Is it as chossy as it appears? If so...[emoji51]

[Dantheman]

The gully granite is solid. The ridgeline quartzite is generally more solid than it looks, though there is definitely a choss factor. Being so fractured makes for abundant jugs which is definitely a good thing. It's hard to believe that route actually goes. The times some people have put in on it are completely unbelievable.

[muted reborn]

Nice work. Definitely not something I'm interested in, but I'm inspired to try your route on Stairs this year and maybe the Storm Mountain to Ferguson. I was across the canyon at the top of the Tram, eating a nice reuben panini and talking about that traverse with the wife yesterday. I was wondering to her how many people would be doing it on such a nice day - how many other people did you see before hitting Superior?

I was hiking up / running down Superior earlier that day and what a madhouse of male runners going down it around 11am, probably just doing Superior if they were descending that early.

[Dantheman]

I was wondering to her how many people would be doing it on such a nice day - how many other people did you see before hitting Superior?

As I was approaching 11,033 I saw a guy about 50 yards below the ridge on the BCC side. At first I though maybe he was bailing from the ridge route, but after watching him a bit more I'm pretty sure he had come up from Lake Blanche. Looked like he was trying to photograph some goats. Otherwise, not a soul between Twins and Monte Cristo. A few people on Monte Cristo but all of them had clearly come up from Alta.

I was hiking up / running down Superior earlier that day and what a madhouse of male runners going down it around 11am, probably just doing Superior if they were descending that early.

Hah, a gal I follow on Strava mentioned "making a bunch of new friends" on the South Ridge yesterday morning. Must have been some kind of group thing.

[muted reborn]

A few people on Monte Cristo but all of them had clearly come up from Alta.

Huh, I thought there would be a few groups getting it.

What kind of weekly mileage running (let's say city or trail run, not hiking with huge vert going straight up or any scrambling) do you think you need for a 10k vert day? I'm sloooowly getting fit just doing a couple steep hikes a week so I recently thought I need to add running to get a better base going. Probably will do early morning jogs with the dog, and also stop taking my dog to Tanners every morning.

10k in a day isn't my goal, but curious anyways?

[Dantheman]

For general base building 8-12 hours/week is the sweet spot for most recreational weekend warrior types. That's total time, so your hikes count as long as you're mostly keeping those at Z2-ish intensity.
I bike commute to work (not today, LOL) so that's a good chunk (5-ish hours) of my Z2 mid-week base training. It may not be as sport-specific, but it's "free" training and the recovery load is lower, plus I hate running on the road. During the week I can usually fit in one hour-ish trail run (Ferguson to the BCC overlook is one of my go-to's) or an interval sesh (say, 4x400 hard), some lifting, then a longer effort on the weekend.

For the general question of "How much fitness do I need to accomplish X?" my rule of thumb is that if I can do at least half of "X" at a fairly aggressive pace and still feel like I have gas in the tank I can finish "X" at an easier pace. I will probably be hurting at the end, but I won't be crawling over the finish line on my hands and knees. That's about how things worked out yesterday. I had been up Twins the previous two weekends (5k-6k efforts with a lot of scrambling) in under 5 hours car-to-car.

[muted reborn]

For the general question of "How much fitness do I need to accomplish X?" my rule of thumb is that if I can do at least half of "X" at a fairly aggressive pace and still feel like I have gas in the tank I can finish "X" at an easier pace. I will probably be hurting at the end, but I won't be crawling over the finish line on my hands and knees. That's about how things worked out yesterday. I had been up Twins the previous two weekends (5k-6k efforts with a lot of scrambling) in under 5 hours car-to-car.

Good stuff, thank you!

[benk]

What kind of weekly mileage running (let's say city or trail run, not hiking with huge vert going straight up or any scrambling) do you think you need for a 10k vert day?

I agree with Dan, 8-12hrs a week is a sweet spot.

What gives me confidence in my training is completing a daily goal throughout the week and maintain that for ~3weeks before a rest week. So if I wanted to do 10k vert days, I would do runs/hikes that add up to 10k throughout the week and do 3x of those weeks in a row. After a rest week I would feel confident in being able to complete a 10k vert day if paced correctly.

I would also consider doing some strength training if you’re vert focused. No matter how many miles/hours I get in a week, descending and lack of strength will be the first thing to take me out.

[muted reborn]

I agree with Dan, 8-12hrs a week is a sweet spot.

What gives me confidence in my training is completing a daily goal throughout the week and maintain that for ~3weeks before a rest week. So if I wanted to do 10k vert days, I would do runs/hikes that add up to 10k throughout the week and do 3x of those weeks in a row. After a rest week I would feel confident in being able to complete a 10k vert day if paced correctly.

I would also consider doing some strength training if you’re vert focused. No matter how many miles/hours I get in a week, descending and lack of strength will be the first thing to take me out.

Thanks Ben, that helps. Again I'm not trying to do a 10k day but I need to do something more. Lone Peak is 7k and I'd like to do that this year. Probably will join a gym this fall - but I say that every fall and never do.

Tonight's high point before the steeeep run down.

[fool]

Cottonwood Ridge traverse in the books. 9 hours, 10.3 miles, 9,700 vert, almost entirely relentless 3rd/4th class scrambling with frequent serious exposure. Hardest thing I've done in a long time.

Pretty stoked, what a day. A full WURL is hard to comprehend.

Nice work, DTM! Was curious if you - or anyone else here - had done/considered the WURL. It's on my "very interested but might/probably will never happen" list. Still sounds like a cool adventure out there.

[fool]

Also, Courtney is in for UTMB. If she wins and sets a CR there, that will be a season for the record books (Western States, Hardrock and UTMB).

[Dantheman]

Nice work, DTM! Was curious if you - or anyone else here - had done/considered the WURL. It's on my "very interested but might/probably will never happen" list. Still sounds like a cool adventure out there.

I've never seriously considered it, and Sunday affirmed that. I know my limits and the WURL in one push is beyond those limits. Doing the Beatout section in the dark after 20+ hours of hard scrambling exceeds my risk/reward threshold.