Running, Anyone...?

[Dantheman]

Dan, that looks pretty amazing. Is it as chossy as it appears? If so...[emoji51]

Speaking of choss on that ridge: https://www.instagram.com/reel/CvlNjjyuMCm

Further discussion in the Wasatch thread.

[phatty]

Was in the Wasatch for a day and went for a run up Kessler Peak in BCC. Elevation coming from Seattle took it's toll, but a great day and one of the few places with no crowds. Only saw 3 people once I passed the Donut Falls junction. Nice and steep, just like I like it. Was trying to make it a loop, but a few places on the ridge past the peak caused me to pause. On another trip with more time, I'll give it a shot.

[Dantheman]

Nice, Kessler is awesome. The upper mine opening you pass goes clear through to the other side of the mountain.

[phatty]

Nice, Kessler is awesome. The upper mine opening you pass goes clear through to the other side of the mountain.

I saw that and wanted to check it out, but didn't since I was solo. Next time I'll have to drop in. It will be a repeat one for me.

[Dantheman]

Crazy humid this morning. Almost 70% which for us might as well be 100%. Unprecedented perspiration.

[muted reborn]

I was JUST looking at that trail on Trailforks thinking "WTF is that? Might have to try it". I close trailforks, open TGR, and your pic of the trail is right there, ha.

[fool]

Great new video on the 2023 Barkley. If you haven't watched "The Race that Eats It's Young" and "Where Dreams Go to Die", I would watch those first, in that order.

Such an intense an insane race.

[Dantheman]

I was JUST looking at that trail on Trailforks thinking "WTF is that? Might have to try it". I close trailforks, open TGR, and your pic of the trail is right there, ha.

It's a good one. Not another soul on it this morning.

[Dantheman]

Huh, I thought there would be a few groups getting it.

What kind of weekly mileage running (let's say city or trail run, not hiking with huge vert going straight up or any scrambling) do you think you need for a 10k vert day? I'm sloooowly getting fit just doing a couple steep hikes a week so I recently thought I need to add running to get a better base going. Probably will do early morning jogs with the dog, and also stop taking my dog to Tanners every morning.

10k in a day isn't my goal, but curious anyways?

I should add one thing to my previous answers to this question, and that's that fueling becomes incredibly important as the length of the effort increases. Under 2ish hours and you don't really need to be worried about eating at all. 2-4ish hours and you can get away with sub-optimal fueling, depending on pace. Over 4 hours, if your nutrition isn't dialed in you're going to be hurting. I consumed north of 2000 kcals throughout the Cottonwood Ridge day.

[thedude2340]

I should add one thing to my previous answers to this question, and that's that fueling becomes incredibly important as the length of the effort increases. Under 2ish hours and you don't really need to be worried about eating at all. 2-4ish hours and you can get away with sub-optimal fueling, depending on pace. Over 4 hours, if your nutrition isn't dialed in you're going to be hurting. I consumed north of 2000 kcals throughout the Cottonwood Ridge day.

Favorite high calorie trail foods? I’m a payday and sour patch kids evangelist but always looking for what I might be missing (besides gels/bars/etc).

Doing 40mi, 14k gain on Saturday. Fuel will be a big decider in finishing.

[phatty]

Favorite high calorie trail foods? I’m a payday and sour patch kids evangelist but always looking for what I might be missing (besides gels/bars/etc).

Doing 40mi, 14k gain on Saturday. Fuel will be a big decider in finishing.

I love Haribo and Swedish fish. I also like the Nature Valley peanut butter wafer bars. Easy on the stomach when moving.

[benk]

I started using Tailwind this year and have really minimized any bonking. I also incorporate Ketone-IQ for anything over 4hrs. It may be the training but have yet to hit a wall while using the ketone iq every ~2hrs on long efforts. Might be snake oil, might be the training, either way it’s nice to do what you can to minimize low points due to fueling for those long efforts.

TheDude-what’s your 40miler? Numbers sound like the timberline trail.

[Dantheman]

Favorite high calorie trail foods? I’m a payday and sour patch kids evangelist but always looking for what I might be missing (besides gels/bars/etc).

Doing 40mi, 14k gain on Saturday. Fuel will be a big decider in finishing.

Lately, sugar. My vest has a 500 ml soft bottle on the chest strap. Bottle gets 200 g sucrose, 10 packs of True Lemon powder, and about 2 g salt, then topped off with water. It doesn't look like it will all dissolve, but trust me, it will. I'm usually targeting 80-100 g of carbs per hour, so I try to have that bottle cashed in 2-2.5 hours. Pre-measured baggies containing 200 g of mix go in the pack for refills.

I've also become a big fan of dates. 2 dates is about 30 g of carbs with very little water weight.

Fat has lots of calories but digests too slowly to be very useful. That's what body fat is for. I haven't experimented with any of the fancy new ketone products yet.

I usually also pack a few ounces of jerky for protein. Long efforts don't require a lot of protein, but you do need some to stave off muscle catabolism.

There's been some pretty extensive fueling discussions in the Sprockets training thread.

Sounds like a big day, good luck!

[climberevan]

Table sugar gang represent! It doesn't need to be any more complicated than this.

[thedude2340]

I started using Tailwind this year and have really minimized any bonking. I also incorporate Ketone-IQ for anything over 4hrs. It may be the training but have yet to hit a wall while using the ketone iq every ~2hrs on long efforts. Might be snake oil, might be the training, either way it’s nice to do what you can to minimize low points due to fueling for those long efforts.

TheDude-what’s your 40miler? Numbers sound like the timberline trail.

Telluride Mountain Run. For me, likely “Telluride Mountain Walk” [emoji16]

[thedude2340]

Lately, sugar. My vest has a 500 ml soft bottle on the chest strap. Bottle gets 200 g sucrose, 10 packs of True Lemon powder, and about 2 g salt, then topped off with water. It doesn't look like it will all dissolve, but trust me, it will. I'm usually targeting 80-100 g of carbs per hour, so I try to have that bottle cashed in 2-2.5 hours. Pre-measured baggies containing 200 g of mix go in the pack for refills.

I've also become a big fan of dates. 2 dates is about 30 g of carbs with very little water weight.

Fat has lots of calories but digests too slowly to be very useful. That's what body fat is for. I haven't experimented with any of the fancy new ketone products yet.

I usually also pack a few ounces of jerky for protein. Long efforts don't require a lot of protein, but you do need some to stave off muscle catabolism.

There's been some pretty extensive fueling discussions in the Sprockets training thread.

Sounds like a big day, good luck!

Thanks for all this, hadn’t thought of dates but that’s a good callout. I’ll check out the sprockets thread as well.

[PeachesNCream]

Lately, sugar. My vest has a 500 ml soft bottle on the chest strap. Bottle gets 200 g sucrose, 10 packs of True Lemon powder, and about 2 g salt, then topped off with water. It doesn't look like it will all dissolve, but trust me, it will. I'm usually targeting 80-100 g of carbs per hour, so I try to have that bottle cashed in 2-2.5 hours. Pre-measured baggies containing 200 g of mix go in the pack for refills.

I've also become a big fan of dates. 2 dates is about 30 g of carbs with very little water weight.

Fat has lots of calories but digests too slowly to be very useful. That's what body fat is for. I haven't experimented with any of the fancy new ketone products yet.

I usually also pack a few ounces of jerky for protein. Long efforts don't require a lot of protein, but you do need some to stave off muscle catabolism.

There's been some pretty extensive fueling discussions in the Sprockets training thread.

Sounds like a big day, good luck!

Is there a reason you’re going for sucrose instead of dextrose? Convenience? Dextrose seems to be the go to for performance sugars. My understanding is sucrose isn’t broken down quite as easy and glucose (dextrose) is the easiest available to fuel muscles


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[Dantheman]

Glucose uptake maxes out around 50-60 g/hr. Fructose uptake happens via a separate metabolic pathway so you can blow right past that 60 g/hr limit. For a long time it was thought that fructose utilization during exercise was low so the focus was placed on glucose sources, such as dextrose and maltodextrin. When people started actually studying fructose utilization they found that it was much higher than anticipated, so the "ideal" G:F ratio has climbed from 3:1, to 2:1, and now 1:1 appears to be ideal, or at least below the tolerable upper limit for fructose intake.

[muted reborn]

You guys don't stop to enjoy the view and eat a delicious sandwich on top of a peak?

[PeachesNCream]

Glucose uptake maxes out around 50-60 g/hr. Fructose uptake happens via a separate metabolic pathway so you can blow right past that 60 g/hr limit. For a long time it was thought that fructose utilization during exercise was low so the focus was placed on glucose sources, such as dextrose and maltodextrin. When people started actually studying fructose utilization they found that it was much higher than anticipated, so the "ideal" G:F ratio has climbed from 3:1, to 2:1, and now 1:1 appears to be ideal, or at least below the tolerable upper limit for fructose intake.

Interesting. I wondered why tailwind had dextrose and cane sugar, seems to be aligned with what you’re saying


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[benk]

You guys don't stop to enjoy the view and eat a delicious sandwich on top of a peak?

There’s a time and place for this for sure, but a full stomach and downhills are a recipe for me shitting my pants

[climberevan]

Delicious sandwich: most definitely, but not on days when I'm trying to move fast afterwards.

The Sprockets thread goes into A LOT of detail on sugar and other topics.

[muted reborn]

There’s a time and place for this for sure, but a full stomach and downhills are a recipe for me shitting my pants

What about some nice Vindaloo leftovers?

Delicious sandwich: most definitely, but not on days when I'm trying to move fast afterwards.

The Sprockets thread goes into A LOT of detail on sugar and other topics.

But no details on good sammies - kinda sad. You guys would recommend cinnamon raison french toast with a pound of sugar inside though.

[Dantheman]

Interesting. I wondered why tailwind had dextrose and cane sugar, seems to be aligned with what you’re saying

Yes, except their formulation hasn't kept up with the latest research. Tailwind is sooo overpriced for what it is. Guess what our resident PhD exercise physiologist (XtrPickles) used as his primary fuel for an 8-day bike trek across Portugal with? Shitloads of table sugar. He even went so far as pack it all on the plane with him in case he couldn't find it in rural Portugal.

Also, credit to climberevan for being way out in front of this. He's been preaching this for quite some time. I'm the first to admit it sounded nuts, but it works.

[Viva]

Tailwind is sooo overpriced for what it is.

Heh, I never thought about what the price of that stuff was.

Always got it for free.