The TGR Skinny Ski Ski Tourers' Refuge Thread

[Jonathan S.]

That 5% can put a big damper on your day, however.

Agreed.
Even if from an outing-long efficiency standpoint the more slimmed-down skins might make the tour overall go by more quickly and with less cumulative fatigue, that 5% of frustration could drag down the final score on the FunOMeter.
Come to think of it, that's also why I rarely use skimo race skis in the backcountry (even though I always use full-cf skimo race boots and skimo racing bindings). Sure I'd be less tired back at the car and/or back at the car earlier, but I wouldn't be having as much fun overall either.
(And remind me, having fun is the point, right? That and not having your or your partners die or suffer serious injury. Which also isn't fun.)

[PinyonJuniper5]

I haven't gotten a chance to try them but looked at the 90 and 99 and they have a hair of camber

That’s a darn shame if you ask me. Backcountry, 3-D snow conditions are exactly where I’d want a skinny-ish reverse camber ski. But there seems to be few options out there.


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[Marshal Olson]

That’s a darn shame if you ask me. Backcountry, 3-D snow conditions are exactly where I’d want a skinny-ish reverse camber ski. But there seems to be few options out there.


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This is IMO a really interesting point, as I had been wrestling with this a bunch myself.

My conclusion is that compared to a well designed modern touring ski with a very small amount of camber (ie <55% camber length and <2mm camber per ski) pure reverse skis add about 5% performance in funky snow, but cost 20% in the skin track.

The trouble is that there are very few modern shaped touring skis, and most 85-100mm touring skis have super whack shapes, stiffnesses, flex patterns that exacerbate their shortcomings, and make them even "unfun" in softslab and worse snow.

[abcdethan]

This is IMO a really interesting point, as I had been wrestling with this a bunch myself.

My conclusion is that compared to a well designed modern touring ski with a very small amount of camber (ie <55% camber length and <2mm camber per ski) pure reverse skis add about 5% performance in funky snow, but cost 20% in the skin track.

The trouble is that there are very few modern shaped touring skis, and most 85-100mm touring skis have super whack shapes, stiffnesses, flex patterns that exacerbate their shortcomings, and make them even "unfun" in softslab and worse snow.

Which narrower modern touring skis do you feel get the shape and flex patterns right?

[Marshal Olson]

Which narrower modern touring skis do you feel get the shape and felx patterns right?

IMO - Those Factions look really really good to me, as do the Moonlight stuff (have not skied either yet, only handle fondling). I just wouldn't discount them based on the small amount of camber!

[CirqueScaler]

Anyone have time on Trab Magico's? I have some Wayback 88's but I've only owned the WayBack's and Zero G 85's for lightweight skis. The Waybacks are "fine" but not inspiring. They're not super light... but they also struggle when I try to press them hard. I'm wondering if the Trab would be lighter with only small downhill concessions.

It seems like Skimoco feels like they're kinda incredible.

I feel like a safer choice for me would be something like a Kastle TX 93 but I'm curious about the Trabs.

The Trab Magicos are super damp, super durable but very demanding skis in that I found the split tail shape to really lock you into turns. That's an experience I've had echoed to me by at least 3 people. So really demanding in that skiing in any way except what the skis want is pretty effortful.

Trabs are up with Movement and Aski as dampest 1-ish-kg skis. I would say Aski is dampest, then Trab then movement. Big gap to anything else.

In terms of stiffness, trabs will be less stiff than the Zero Gs. I feel like stiffness is the only thing going for the Zero Gs and that you have to be a former ski racer to truly ski the Zero Gs well. Typical Zero G skier gets kicked into the back seat constantly.

I don't have experience on the Wayback 88 unfortunately. Something tells me you should ask skimoco about the Volkl rise beyond 88 or the Dynafit Blacklight Pro/series. The Dynafit Blacklight 88 "skied heavy" - felt like it punched through crud. Trab felt like it absorbed crud if that difference makes sense.

Another thing to consider is if a ski is damper or simply heavier. I think the Zero G line is just heavier. If your ski is 30% heavier than an actual 1kg ski then it'll ski better. The Trab is nice because you can get the same shape but get up to a 1200g ski if you want. Same thing with the Backland line.

[Tjaardbreeuwer]

Re: Factions:

I had two pairs of Factions Agent, the 2.0 and 1.0. Both came in well above listed weight. 1.0 was significantly heavier than claimed.
So if you are looking at Factions, make sure you get a real weight (assuming that matters to you).

[Benneke10]

Re: Factions:

I had two pairs of Factions Agent, the 2.0 and 1.0. Both came in well above listed weight. 1.0 was significantly heavier than claimed.
So if you are looking at Factions, make sure you get a real weight (assuming that matters to you).

Skimo co published real world weights of the Machines, slightly above spec but not horribly so

[turnfarmer]

That’s a darn shame if you ask me. Backcountry, 3-D snow conditions are exactly where I’d want a skinny-ish reverse camber ski. But there seems to be few options out there.


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I also think it depends on the skis stiffness underfoot. For instance the Volkl 98/blazes, the camber is so soft underfoot it rounds out to reverse with almost no pressure.

[CirqueScaler]

Does anyone have rec for a spring pant or just a solution to keep snow out of boots? I want it as light/cold as possible. I actually usually wear shorts only whenever it's >32F and sunny, but then when I'm skiing down or booting snow gets in my boots, so I am now looking for pants (or a solution).

I'm seeing some pants that are like $200 but that seems frustrating. Any suggestions?

[jamal]

I recently got some of these, mainly because they come in tall sizing: https://www.mammut.com/us/en/product...brid-pants-men

Used them racing beer league skimo and they worked great, last year i was wearing tights and that put a lot of snow in my boots on the bootpack. Also nice on warm days, or short trips up the local hills too as my light "touring specific" shell pants are still a little much a lot of the time. Have side vent zips and then zippers on the bottoms to widen the cuff. No gaiter but scuff guards and a rubber gripper around the bottom. With my backlands I can zip them down and it's pretty tight around them although I also don't expect they'd fit over a big boot. Pretty slim fitting. I do wish they had a better waist adjuster- it's just a string plus a stretchy waistband, no belt loops. Side velcro deals or something would be nice.

[Tailwind]

This was super helpful. I’m fairly convinced if like the Magico for a lot of applications. The Aski was on my short list but Skimoco sold out of my size.

The main hold up with the trabs is the cost… I’ve never fully clicked with any pair of light skis. I’m thinking these might fit my use pretty darn well but $1100 is a lot of money for a best guess.

I’ll ponder a bit more and see where I end up.

The Trab Magicos are super damp, super durable but very demanding skis in that I found the split tail shape to really lock you into turns. That's an experience I've had echoed to me by at least 3 people. So really demanding in that skiing in any way except what the skis want is pretty effortful.

Trabs are up with Movement and Aski as dampest 1-ish-kg skis. I would say Aski is dampest, then Trab then movement. Big gap to anything else.

In terms of stiffness, trabs will be less stiff than the Zero Gs. I feel like stiffness is the only thing going for the Zero Gs and that you have to be a former ski racer to truly ski the Zero Gs well. Typical Zero G skier gets kicked into the back seat constantly.

I don't have experience on the Wayback 88 unfortunately. Something tells me you should ask skimoco about the Volkl rise beyond 88 or the Dynafit Blacklight Pro/series. The Dynafit Blacklight 88 "skied heavy" - felt like it punched through crud. Trab felt like it absorbed crud if that difference makes sense.

Another thing to consider is if a ski is damper or simply heavier. I think the Zero G line is just heavier. If your ski is 30% heavier than an actual 1kg ski then it'll ski better. The Trab is nice because you can get the same shape but get up to a 1200g ski if you want. Same thing with the Backland line.

[nyskirat]

Anyone have time on both the Kastle TX 87 and 93?

Can't seem to find anyone with insight into the difference on snow. I can't imagine 6cm is a lot but there has to be a reason they've got both in their lineup.

[CirqueScaler]

This was super helpful. I’m fairly convinced if like the Magico for a lot of applications. The Aski was on my short list but Skimoco sold out of my size.

The main hold up with the trabs is the cost… I’ve never fully clicked with any pair of light skis. I’m thinking these might fit my use pretty darn well but $1100 is a lot of money for a best guess.

I’ll ponder a bit more and see where I end up.

Yeah, they are hella expensive.

The ski shape is pretty unique IMO - the tails really messed with me - so it might be worth demoing or even buying the cheaper version. The La Sportiva-branded cheaper versions pop up for really low prices pretty frequently.

Uh..... what size Aski are you looking for haha. 175? Maybe we can work some TGR Skinny Ski Ski Tourers Refuge magic.

[climberevan]

Someone here might be interested. RS is the answer if you like light, stiff, quick transitions.

https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...d.php?t=351761

[NorCalNomad]

Loving my F1 LT's but the only bc boot I've had trouble with keeping my toes warm (and my feet normally run hot). Anyone played with putting insulating tape (thinking either Mylar or Polyimide/ Kapton tape) on the internal toe box or anything like that? Or even Mylar on the outside of their liners?

[PinyonJuniper5]

Loving my F1 LT's but the only bc boot I've had trouble with keeping my toes warm (and my feet normally run hot). Anyone played with putting insulating tape (thinking either Mylar or Polyimide/ Kapton tape) on the internal toe box or anything like that? Or even Mylar on the outside of their liners?

I use vapor barrier socks when I ski my F1 LT’s in cold temps (anything colder than 10ish Fahrenheit). They prevent my socks and liners from absorbing any sweat and I notice that my feet stay significantly warmer. I run them against my skin underneath the CT Pro sock from LeBent (which is awesome BTW).

The plastic produce bags that you see at the grocery store work great and won’t alter the fit of your boots at all. I’ve yet to find a commercially produced VBL sock that works as well as these. The main disadvantages are that they are pretty much only good for a single day’s use, and are kind of gross to take off at the end of the day when they are filled with sweat.


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[kamtron]

Does anyone have rec for a spring pant or just a solution to keep snow out of boots? I want it as light/cold as possible. I actually usually wear shorts only whenever it's >32F and sunny, but then when I'm skiing down or booting snow gets in my boots, so I am now looking for pants (or a solution).

I'm seeing some pants that are like $200 but that seems frustrating. Any suggestions?

I wear Marmot Scree pants in summer. They are nice, stretchy, Schoeller softshell pants that breathe pretty well and cuffs just fit over my Backland boots.

[Jonathan S.]

I wear Marmot Scree pants in summer. They are nice, stretchy, Schoeller softshell pants that breathe pretty well and cuffs just fit over my Backland boots.

I keep it real with jeans:
https://skimo.co/crazy-idea-hugo-pants
... if they're not really actual real jeans!

[NorCalNomad]

Well let's see if this works out. Have a hut trip this weekend with a 7mile approach in teens temps.
Just super77'd bits of a mylar blanket to the toebox and sole + a bit of wrap.

[CirqueScaler]

Nice! Let us know how it goes. Vapor barrier socks seem cool too - I've never heard of those.

Friend recommended the Strafe Recon pants. He said Gaston told him he made them for himself to train in because he doesn't want to train in a skinsuit. Seems really light, exactly the features I need, and only $140. Promising.

[Jonathan S.]

Man most of my touring skis would feel scary at 50mph.

Trail was closed for the race:
https://www.strava.com/activities/1997064590
One of the podium'ers hit the low 70s.
Compared to racing SG or DH back in the day, way scarier, since, well, my skimo race skis aren't exactly (or even inexactly) my (long since sold) SG or DH race skis.
(My skimo race skis were kind of doing the equivalent of hydroplaning at those speeds.)

The following year, lower speeds:
https://www.strava.com/activities/2886063481
... since snow fencing was installed to essentially create a GS course on the upper pitch leading in the flats.

[turnfarmer]

Trail was closed for the race:
https://www.strava.com/activities/1997064590
One of the podium'ers hit the low 70s.
Compared to racing SG or DH back in the day, way scarier, since, well, my skimo race skis aren't exactly (or even inexactly) my (long since sold) SG or DH race skis.
(My skimo race skis were kind of doing the equivalent of hydroplaning at those speeds.)

The following year, lower speeds:
https://www.strava.com/activities/2886063481
... since snow fencing was installed to essentially create a GS course on the upper pitch leading in the flats.

Not to mention pin bindings and slippers

[V.R.P]

Nice! Let us know how it goes. Vapor barrier socks seem cool too - I've never heard of those.

Friend recommended the Strafe Recon pants. He said Gaston told him he made them for himself to train in because he doesn't want to train in a skinsuit. Seems really light, exactly the features I need, and only $140. Promising.

I have a pair of the Recons that I wore last spring in the Cascades and on a few warmer tours in the CO Rockies so far. They are REALLY thin but held up to me falling on my ass a few times last year when I should’ve had ski crampons on. Only thing that is funky is the built in belt.

[Jonathan S.]

Not to mention pin bindings and slippers

That actually wasn't a concern: full cf skimo race boots are far more than stiff enough for straightlining on moderately pitched smoothly groomed terrain @ ~60mph, and Hagan-rebranded ATK race bindings have a release value somewhere in the high single digits, so similar to my GS race binding settings, and although not high enough for making turns at those speeds, fine for easy (albeit terrifying) straightlining.