Electric car thread

[oldnew_guy]

We passed the point where we get to carefully choose our preferred path away from fossil fuels several decades ago.

Now we get to make a series of shit choices about what to do next because the same people who told us we couldn’t do solar or wind or nuclear or increase mileage standards or increase home energy efficiency, etc etc are now telling us that EVs are bad! Which all just circles back to the same result of dragging our feet and staying on fossil fuels longer.

No shit EVs aren’t the end all be all.

[Name Redacted]

I have faith that technology will continue to develop at a faster and faster pace where we will eventually be able to make meaningful changes to the carbon output of the human race. But I also contend that we will all be killed off by Artificial Intelligence robots well before climate change can catch up with us.

[fomofo]

CES 2023: The Best EVs, Rideables and Electric Bikes We Saw

[MontuckyFried]

Now we get to make a series of shit choices about what to do next because the same people who told us we couldn’t do solar or wind or nuclear or increase mileage standards or increase home energy efficiency, etc etc are now telling us that EVs are bad! Which all just circles back to the same result of dragging our feet and staying on fossil fuels longer.

Honestly, the average Joe isn't getting worked up about all the nuanced arguments for/against EVs. At the end of the day, what MOST people care about is their bottom line. When the vast majority of new EVs are priced squarely in premium car territory, AND dealers are screwing people on charging 10s of thousands over MSRP on top of that, AND there's a long wait to score one... when shopping for a used one prices are ludicrously overpriced or in need of extraordinarily spendy battery replacements... adoption is going to be slow to say the least. For every "affordable" EV the industry comes up with, such as the very nice options Kia and Hyundai, every dealership's out there to keep us plebes from being able to actually afford them. Not to mention the severe supply chain and manufacturing issues to begin with.

For me, the reason I haven't jumped in yet is due to those reasons above. I straight up can't afford one. The Chevy Bolt is a good option BUT I just looked them up at all my local dealers for fun, and yup. There's still a severe lack of inventory. Saw ONE and they were charging like $40K for it. Nope.

When Tesla came out with the Model 3, I was heavily considering a base model version as its price of entry seemed pretty fair. Didn't take long for that price to balloon out of reach for me AND they did away that very base model I had my eyes on. Oh well. Maybe about 5 or 6 years ago, you actually COULD score a used Tesla for pretty reasonable prices, but no more it seems. Same with the all the rest.

[oldnew_guy]

I’ll make sure to add “they are unaffordable!” to my list.

[MontuckyFried]

I’ll make sure to add “they are unaffordable!” to my list.

NOW you're getting it!

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[dunfree]

I’ll make sure to add “they are unaffordable!” to my list.

You don’t have to be a stupid fuck. I mean if you actually care about saving the earth cost matters (not that pro EV zealots give a fuck about saving the earth ).

Of course the issue is complicated because used EVs can be had dirt cheap, but consumers don’t care.

[Core Shot]

I think it’s easier to save the planet by getting a used 30mpg car than driving a 14mpg pickemup truck that’s rarely filled with a work load.

I’m still pissed about the Vw dieselgate bullshit

I went from 45mpg hwy. 33 in town. To 24mpg. How’s that helping the planet? The nox wasn’t that bad. Yeah in cities. But my carbon footprint increased. Winning like Al gore

[Ted Striker]

VW's penance was setting up Electrify America - the world's worst EV charging network.

[MontuckyFried]

Of course the issue is complicated because used EVs can be had dirt cheap, but consumers don’t care.

O RLY? Please direct us to said "dirt cheap" EVs, oh wise one.

I just ran a nationwide Autotrader search for EVs under $20K and the results were pretty dismal. Particularly if you want something with a USABLE (>200) mile range.

[nickwm21]

Honestly, the average Joe isn't getting worked up about all the nuanced arguments for/against EVs. At the end of the day, what MOST people care about is their bottom line. When the vast majority of new EVs are priced squarely in premium car territory, AND dealers are screwing people on charging 10s of thousands over MSRP on top of that, AND there's a long wait to score one... when shopping for a used one prices are ludicrously overpriced or in need of extraordinarily spendy battery replacements... adoption is going to be slow to say the least. For every "affordable" EV the industry comes up with, such as the very nice options Kia and Hyundai, every dealership's out there to keep us plebes from being able to actually afford them. Not to mention the severe supply chain and manufacturing issues to begin with.

For me, the reason I haven't jumped in yet is due to those reasons above. I straight up can't afford one. The Chevy Bolt is a good option BUT I just looked them up at all my local dealers for fun, and yup. There's still a severe lack of inventory. Saw ONE and they were charging like $40K for it. Nope.

When Tesla came out with the Model 3, I was heavily considering a base model version as its price of entry seemed pretty fair. Didn't take long for that price to balloon out of reach for me AND they did away that very base model I had my eyes on. Oh well. Maybe about 5 or 6 years ago, you actually COULD score a used Tesla for pretty reasonable prices, but no more it seems. Same with the all the rest.

Currently, depending on use case, cost of ownership is essentially equal, ICE vs EV. $10-$15 to charge vs $70 for a tank. No oil changes. No timing belts. No transmission. Regenerative braking. All that adds up.

If inventory stabilizes over the next couple of years and manufactures start adding EVs down the line to the more budget models, you will have to be allergic to money to buy a new ICE.


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[uglymoney]

Blister has a new podcast with Bill McKibbon. He gives us his overview take on a lot of the things being discussed in this thread here lately.

I've read several of his books and mostly knew what he was going to say, but like some of his newer spins on things like oil is like getting energy from hell and the sun is energy from heaven.

His position on nuclear seems completely sensible. I'd say pretty much the same as mine, though I am probably be more pro investment in the next gen techs (not really discussed).

Stays out of the weeds. Good positive message. Worth a listen.

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[MontuckyFried]

Currently, depending on use case, cost of ownership is essentially equal, ICE vs EV. $10-$15 to charge vs $70 for a tank. No oil changes. No timing belts. No transmission. Regenerative braking. All that adds up.

If inventory stabilizes over the next couple of years and manufactures start adding EVs down the line to the more budget models, you will have to be allergic to money to buy a new ICE.

Oh, no doubt. The lower cost of regular maintenance and fuel is SERIOUSLY appealing. Long term, the math certainly pencils out. It's just that initial buy-in that's a tough pill for most of us to swallow... for now. Like you said, when inventory stabilizes, that should absolutely help things. I really DO want one.

Blister has a new podcast with Bill McKibbon. He gives us his overview take on a lot of the things being discussed in this thread here lately.

I've read several of his books and mostly knew what he was going to say, but like some of his newer spins on things like oil is like getting energy from hell and the sun is energy from heaven.

His position on nuclear seems completely sensible. I'd say pretty much the same as mine, though I am probably be more pro investment in the next gen techs (not really discussed).

Stays out of the weeds. Good positive message. Worth a listen.

Thanks. Downloaded. Will give that one a listen as I deliver new valves to my shop for my broken Volvo motor today. Haha. Not kidding. It's times like this that make me realize the downsides of ICE vehicles. HORRIBLY complex these days. Since everything's so overly-computerized and complicated anyway, might as well go EV.

[uglymoney]

Okay. Careful. I hope listening to him doesn't make your head explode. Lolz.

[rod9301]

So do the savings pencil even with requiring z new battery in 10 years?

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[MontuckyFried]

Okay. Careful. I hope listening to him doesn't make your head explode. Lolz.

Nah. I know who Bill McKibbon is. (don't forget, I've been trying for years to get into the renewables side of the energy sector). I listened to it on my drive today. Good chat, but like you said, he stayed out of the weeds and after listening, I kinda wish he HAD gone into the weeds a bit. But I guess an hour's too short to really be able to address more of the nuances. I 100% agree with him about heat pumps needing to get WAY more attention than they are. Also like that he wasn't anti-nuclear and look at wind/solar as more of a bridge. That said, he also seemed pretty out of touch with the common man and failed to address some of the more realistic ways of getting more people onboard. Glad he likes his Kia EV and thinks electric bikes are cool and all, but those are all still crazy expensive for most people. McKibbon is very much in his own little idealistic bubble. That said, enjoyable talk. Seems like a nice guy with his heart in the right place.

IMO, one of the BIGGEST ways to get the masses on board with solar on their homes is NOT what he says, being the hordes of sales people from solar companies descending upon neighborhoods. That's been played out. At least here. We used to get bombarded constantly. Then the dirty truth about the contracts came out when we had massive power failures state wide in that big freeze a couple years back. That's when everybody realized that unless you sprung for the (very expensive) battery backup options, you'd be SOL in the event of a power outtage. Despite your contributions to the grid, you get cut off yourself. THEN there is the bureaucratic red tape in order to hook up good ol' boy solar contractors, keeping you from going solo with a preferred electrician. Anyway, the power outtages seriously put a dent in new business for the big solar outfits. They refuse to revise the contracts, and to make matters worse, they make little financial incentives. My solution? Treat power JUST like oil & gas production, ie pay the providers of said resources a phat royalty! When people are not just having no power bill, but getting checks in the mail for their contributions to the grid, you will get EVERYBODY on board. But of course all the major utility providers don't want THAT to happen. That's of course where their cronies in politics have their backs. This to me is where a freer market could absolutely be a solution, but government (as usual) gets in the way of the solutions they claim to provide.

[MontuckyFried]

So do the savings pencil even with requiring z new battery in 10 years?

It all depends. If more remanufactured battery providers can be there for us, then absolutely. At current Tesla MSRP for a new pack, that's fuzzier. Math was more solid on things like the Nissan Leaf last I checked.

[plugboots]

Fun conversation with a customer here in Winthrop. She has a model X and had to stop twice to get here. She’s planning 5.5 hours to go the same distance, to almost the same location, (Bellevue vs. Issaquah), that I do in 3.5 hours. She loves the car, loves stopping etc., typical big fan. She only does this drive once/year. I do it 20 times/year.
This is why I bought a Prius, and own a BMW as well.
Maybe my next car will be e?

[gravitylover]

Mazda confirmed a rotary charger/extender today. Looks like it hits the Euro market first but we're not far behind.

[Ted Striker]

She only does this drive once/year. I do it 20 times/year.

Right tool for the job. She can be inconvenienced occasionally NBD. Twice per month is ICE or hybrid territory for sure.

That's why the haters' arguments are so disingenuous: "Yeah, but what happens when you have to do something you almost never do?!!"

[muted reborn]

Right tool for the job. She can be inconvenienced occasionally NBD. Twice per month is ICE or hybrid territory for sure.

That's why the haters' arguments are so disingenuous: "Yeah, but what happens when you have to do something you almost never do?!!"

i have 40000 miles on my EV and if I didn’t take it once to Moab and once to Jackson I could say I spent zero minutes recharging it anywhere but my house, if my memory is serving me right. I did think I’d spend a lot of time recharging elsewhere when I bought it though.

[NBABUCKS1]

i have 40000 miles on my EV and if I didn’t take it once to Moab and once to Jackson I could say I spent zero minutes recharging it anywhere but my house, if my memory is serving me right. I did think I’d spend a lot of time recharging elsewhere when I bought it though.

interesting. Guess we're hiding those wendover trips from more than one person....

[45hill]

I was wrong about burning wood being carbon neutral. I guess I read a logging lobbyist article. Still too cheap to pay for propane and I enjoy everything about curting firewood.

[biggsie]

Now we get to make a series of shit choices about what to do next because the same people who told us we couldn’t do solar or wind or nuclear or increase mileage standards or increase home energy efficiency, etc etc are now telling us that EVs are bad! Which all just circles back to the same result of dragging our feet and staying on fossil fuels longer.

Amen, brother.

[Core Shot]

Jennifer Homendy, raised the issue in a speech in Washington to the Transportation Research Board. AP reports she pointed, by way as an example, to an electric GMC Hummer that weighs about 9,000 pounds with a battery pack that alone is 2,900 pounds — roughly the entire weight of a typical Honda Civic.

“I’m concerned about the increased risk of severe injury and death for all road users from heavier curb weights and increasing size, power, and performance of vehicles on our roads, including electric vehicles,”
The official noted Ford’s F-150 Lightning EV pickup is 2,000 to 3,000 pounds heavier than the same model’s combustion version. The Mustang Mach E electric SUV and the Volvo XC40 EV, she said, are roughly 33 percent heavier than their gasoline counterparts.

“That has a significant impact on safety for all road users,” Homendy added.