Student Loan Forgiveness

[J. Barron DeJong]

Regardless, it's just one pick out of many. In the grand scheme of things, LOTS and LOTS of industries have their hand in the cookie jar and have for decades. This one handout happens to generally go to lower earning individuals, and yet THIS is the one that has everyone screaming.

Seriously.

If your concern is really about the debt, or the working class shouldering the burden to help the more fortunate, how about rolling back some tax cuts:



https://twitter.com/jimtankersley/st...WM5mFUocUOaAAg

[AdironRider]

You agree with them that they’re going to shoulder the financial burden of this program? How stupid are you? It’s been shown that people making less than $50k don’t pay much if any tax and that these government backed loans will just be forgiven by a line on a ledger. This won’t have any effect on increasing anyone’s tax burden. Pay attention instead of doubling down on the stupid.

Btw, I don’t have a college degree and I’m solidly middle class and always have been. I don’t look down on rural folks, I’m one of them.

Hey dipshit, where did I say they make 50k or less? I said that should be where the cap should be (or sub 100k household). I don't think you would be getting the pushback if this program was designed to help those that actually need it.

But telling an electrician or logger they need to nut up to pay for college they didn't get the chance on, for whatever reason, rubs plenty the wrong way. Plenty of people might not be able to afford college when they are 18 but then turn out alright. There have been some examples in this thread of that. But people don't exactly get the warm and fuzzies over paying for other people's choices about opportunities they never had, or couldn't take advantage of for themselves in the first place.

[MultiVerse]

Instead of bad poorly targeted policies that don't address the deeper issues, we need more things like this that do:

"As a part of my announcement to get relief to Americans with student debt, I'm holding colleges accountable for jacking up costs without delivering value to students.

We’ve terminated college accreditors that allowed colleges – like ITT and Corinthian – to defraud borrowers.

will also publish an annual list of colleges that leave students with unmanageable debt so that students can avoid these programs."


Also, too, second-tier affordable state schools are the gems of the American higher ed system because they do a good job graduating low-and-middle class kids into the upper-middle class, without requiring massive debt.

[Mustonen]

Hey dipshit, where did I say they make 50k or less? I said that should be where the cap should be. I don't think you would be getting the pushback if this program was designed to help those that actually need it.

Plenty of people might not be able to afford college when they are 18 but then turn out alright. There have been some examples in this thread of that. But people don't exactly get the warm and fuzzies over paying for other people's choices about opportunities they never had, or couldn't take advantage of for themselves in the first place.

You literally said this was on the backs of people making $50k or less.

And it isn’t.

Over 50% of loan debt is held by graduate degree holders, and wiping out a portion of their undergraduate debt to get them there, with a 125k income cap, on the backs of people making 50k or lower is above and beyond any concept of fairness.

Dipshit.

[/gratuitous shit slinging]

[dunfree]

If i busted my ass to pay off my student loans, and now am part of the middle class that will likely shoulder the majority of the nebulous tax burden that finances this student loan forgiveness, am i supposed to be the most outraged of anyone? Can i tell the forgivees, as well as the never-wents to STFU and quit your bitching? I mean, the forgivees get a free $10k that i never got, and the never-wents got a 4.5 year headstart and didnt start in a five-figure hole! Do i win this outrage competition? Or do i lose because i win?

Any reasonable definition of a middle class won’t pay the majority of the tax burden for this as things stand - the top 1% of earners pay ~40% of taxes.

Just like people making >$50k a year even if they sweat aren’t the median current “working class”.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

You literally said this was on the backs of people making $50k or less.

And it isn’t.



Dipshit.

[/gratuitous shit slinging]

His college degree was money well spent. What a moron.

[Buster Highmen]

Basically, I don't get the lack of national identity.
America First, right?

Well, forgiving student loans is putting America first. Certainly, more than the 400 billion the banks reaped from the MBS bailout. (700+b loaned, 300b returned.)

I had student loans, I paid them off. I'm not bitter and I guarantee I shoulder more of the tax load than most loggers or tradesman. I don't mind subsidizing their roads, their hospitals or their education.

It's just furthering our national divisiveness to justify that bitterness.

The point of the forgiveness is to attempt to level the playing field, the financial gradient, even though I think there's lots better ways to do so. For example, as mentioned, by increasing federal funding for higher education and arrest the ridiculous tuition inflation so that more people can afford colledge.

[::: :::]

Basically, I don't get the lack of national identity.
America First, right?

Well, forgiving student loans is putting America first. Certainly, more than the 400 billion the banks reaped from the MBS bailout.700+b loaned, 300b returned.

I had student loans, I paid them off. I'm not bitter and I guarantee I shoulder more of the tax load than most loggers or tradesman. I don't mind subsidizing their roads, their hospitals or their education.

It's just furthering our national divisiveness to justify that bitterness.

The point of the forgiveness is to attempt to level the playing field, the financial gradient, even though I think there's lots better ways to do so. For example, as mentioned, by increasing federal funding for higher education and arrest the ridiculous tuition inflation so that more people can afford colledge.

Or, any of the programs out there that the federal government funds with amounts in the billions for that matter...

The "divisiveness in the US" is a function of people blindly lapping up the class warfare served up by the conservative political class for whom this sort of misinformation is expedient, since their stated policies don't actually benefit lower & middle income people. For instance:

But telling an electrician or logger they need to nut up to pay for college they didn't get the chance on, for whatever reason, rubs plenty the wrong way. Plenty of people might not be able to afford college when they are 18 but then turn out alright. There have been some examples in this thread of that. But people don't exactly get the warm and fuzzies over paying for other people's choices about opportunities they never had, or couldn't take advantage of for themselves in the first place.

^^^ this is essentially his point, it had nothing to do with numbers, just grievances about "fairness"

[MagnificentUnicorn]

It’s not class warfare it’s a war of ignorance and stupidity against truth and kindness

[jfost]

I find it astounding just how blatant some posters are with their disdain for non-college educated people.

Are you talking about individual disdain or household disdain???

[Buster Highmen]

The "divisiveness in the US" is a function of people blindly lapping up the class warfare served up by the conservative political class for whom this sort of misinformation is expedient, since their stated policies don't actually benefit lower & middle income people.

Ya think?

[MultiVerse]

It’s not class warfare it’s a war of ignorance and stupidity against truth and kindness

All due respect to everyone espousing a similar point of view, the costs of the debt jubilee should be borne by universities since they're the ones who will benefit most, and at the expense of students in the future who will face even higher college tuition costs.

[Buster Highmen]

All due respect to everyone espousing a similar point of view, the costs of the debt jubilee should be borne by corporations since they're the ones who will benefit most at the expense of taxpayers in the future.

fify

[MultiVerse]

fify

My man, this entire discussion is like a kindergarten classroom, “well corporations are worse!”

In this case I don't think they are. Expensive American liberal arts schools fooled poor and middle class families into believing incurring massive amounts of debt is a ticket to upper class riches.

It's a fairy tale that's simply not true anymore. The labor market outcomes for young college graduates have deteriorated substantially in the last twenty five years. We should not be making the situation worse by making college even more expensive.

[Bunion 2020]

^^^ You could expand on that entire thesis a lot. Especially blaming just "Expensive American liberal arts schools".

Higher education is an industry.

[jfost]

…Expensive American liberal arts schools fooled poor and middle class families into believing incurring massive amounts of debt is a ticket to upper class riches.
….

I don’t think this is true for most “poor and middle class families” that go through with college.

[jackstraw]

My man, this entire discussion is like a kindergarten classroom, “well corporations are worse!”

In this case I don't think they are. Expensive American liberal arts schools fooled poor and middle class families into believing incurring massive amounts of debt is a ticket to upper class riches.

It's a fairy tale that's simply not true anymore. The labor market outcomes for young college graduates have deteriorated substantially in the last twenty five years. We should not be making the situation worse by making college even more expensive.

You really think everyone goes to school in hopes of becoming upper class citizens? That's their only reason?

[MultiVerse]

I don’t think this is true for most “poor and middle class families” that go through with college.

I agree. Lower income kids who attend second-tier affordable state schools achieve good outcomes. These types of institutions are adding value. While there are exceptions of course, the same can't be said about more expensive schools. High levels of upward mobility don't show up in data for lower income kids.

Higher education is an industry.

You really think everyone goes to school in hopes of becoming upper class citizens? That's their only reason?

I think Bunion is right, for a lot schools education is an industry where student career outcomes are not necessarily a high priority. If people want to attend college for other reasons that's fine. But if it's not about having a profession afterwards they need fully aware of that before going deep into debt.

[J. Barron DeJong]

My man, this entire discussion is like a kindergarten classroom, “well corporations are worse!”

In this case I don't think they are. Expensive American liberal arts schools fooled poor and middle class families into believing incurring massive amounts of debt is a ticket to upper class riches.

It's a fairy tale that's simply not true anymore. The labor market outcomes for young college graduates have deteriorated substantially in the last twenty five years. We should not be making the situation worse by making college even more expensive.

US college wage premium doesn’t seem to have declined significantly?



And the college wage premium is particularly high in the US:



https://twitter.com/mattbruenig/stat...WM5mFUocUOaAAg

So it’s not surprising that many students thought the goal should be college if at all possible.

(Note that the Twitter posts are part of a longer discussion about college education externalities, and whether the higher wage premium in the US means there should be less public subsidies vs. European countries. And also a little bit about whether the higher wage premium has contributed to higher college costs.)

[jfost]

I agree. Lower income kids who attend second-tier affordable state schools achieve good outcomes. These types of institutions are adding value. While there are exceptions of course, the same can't be said about more expensive schools. High levels of upward mobility don't show up in data.

I’m not ready to discount the impact that going to Ivy or Stanford or any old expensive school might have on the entire family of a lower income kid. I think it still has cachet

[MultiVerse]

^ Oh for sure if we're talking about Stanford but most prestige schools like that have very few lower income kids to begin with.

US college wage premium doesn’t seem to have declined significantly?



And the college wage premium is particularly high in the US:

Not a significant decline but a decline nonetheless. The college wealth premium is at a historic low. So I guess the question is does that justify a $200,000+ college expense?

[jackstraw]

^ Oh for sure if we're talking about Stanford but most prestige schools like that have very few lower income kids to begin with.

"Nearly 1 in 4 undergraduates comes from a family whose annual income is $75,000 or less. Harvard provides a $2,000 “start-up” grant to each of these students in their first year."

[MultiVerse]

That's good for Harvard and the country. According to data from Harvard's Raj Chetty however that's the exception, not necesarily the rule. More so when we start talking about elite schools but not pinnacle schools like Harvard and Stanford with massive endowments.

[Buster Highmen]

My man, this entire discussion is like a kindergarten classroom, “well corporations are worse!”

Once they pay their fair share of taxes, instead of the historic lows at which they currently revel, maybe your characterization might be taken seriously.

In this case I don't think they are.

Expensive American liberal arts schools fooled poor and middle class families into believing incurring massive amounts of debt is a ticket to upper class riches.

While you're as entitled as Mr. Trump to your opinion, it may be of similar content.

It's a fairy tale that's simply not true anymore. The labor market outcomes for young college graduates have deteriorated substantially in the last twenty five years. We should not be making the situation worse by making college even more expensive.

As I've rerereiterated, I think we're on the same page with regard to tuition inflation.
But your linked article really doesn't support claims regarding "liberal arts" schools nor does it fully explain the real estate inflation that might root some of the explanations for live-at-home college grads.

The real issue is tuition inflation.

[MultiVerse]

The real issue is tuition inflation.

I agree, that's the deeper issue. I guess my point is by any objective measure debt forgiveness along with other subsidies can only make the situation worse in the future.