Student Loan Forgiveness

[J. Barron DeJong]

"The University of California, originally consisting solely of UC Berkeley’s campus, has the distinction of being California’s first public university. At the UC system’s inception, tuition was free for California residents. Over the years, student fees increased, and by the 1970s, the university moved away from free tuition for residents...


...
1921: Though tuition is still free, California residents are now required to pay an “incidental fee” of $25 per year to cover services not related to instruction. Tuition for nonresidents is $75 per year.

1956: Incidental fee is $84 per year. Tuition for nonresidents is $300 per year. Tuition is still “free” for California residents.
...

"


Nowadays, the major UC schools are some of the hardest to get into in the country. UCLA has ~17% acceptance rate...
Of course, well,

Sorry, you lost me at ‘public university’. Why should the public be expected to support, in any way, someone getting a degree that they’re going to benefit from personally?

[dunfree]

Sorry, you lost me at ‘public university’. Why should the public be expected to support, in any way, someone getting a degree that they’re going to benefit from personally?

because there’s free* land to pay for it? If we called this thing a grant would that be better?

*often stolen

[SumJongGuy]

Joe smokes weed and gets busted for weed before weed was legal. Joe does a year in jail for breaking the law. Joe says it's not fair that kids today don't have to go to jail for smoking weed the way he did. Does it suck that Joe didn't have the same deal folks today have? Maybe. but Jone knew the law. This is kinda like letting people currently in jail for weed out of jail when weed becomes legal. People who served their terms before the emancipation are pissy about it.... and somewhat understandably.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Joe smokes weed and gets busted for weed before weed was legal. Joe does a year in jail for breaking the law. Joe says it's not fair that kids today don't have to go to jail for smoking weed the way he did. Does it suck that Joe didn't have the same deal folks today have? Maybe. but Jone knew the law. This is kinda like letting people currently in jail for weed out of jail when weed becomes legal. People who served their terms before the emancipation are pissy about it.... and somewhat understandably.

People in jail on weed charges should be let out of jail, though.

Didn’t emancipation free slaves, not just prevent new enslavement? Should slavery not have ended because it was unfair to the previous people who died enslaved?

And again, a lot of the people who are complaining are people who benefited from a system that didn’t require them to pay as much of their educational costs themselves.

[SoVT Joey]

So many shitty memes and analogies abound... you can make many valid arguments in favor or debt relief, but the following are absolutely fucking stupid counter arguments to objections:

"Opposing debt relief is like not wanting to magically cure cancer because other people already died!"
1. Nobody randomly got student loans against their will, and loans come with a benefit unlike cancer.
2. Student debt is nowhere so horrible as cancer.
3. Relieving debt is not a magical cure. It takes other people's money and uses it for this purpose of debt relief instead of other purposes.

"Opposing debt relief is like hating Jesus making water into wine because other people paid for their wine."
Debt relief is not done with magic money conjured from the ether by your favorite magic deity waving their hands. It is real money that comes from real people and it is finite.

"You are like a child angry that the other kid got extra ice cream!"
This is a fucking playground game? We are talking about paying off some people's loans with other people's money. 321 Billion dollars of other people's money. Your money and mine. Fair use? Good use? Best use?

You can debate the merits for or against, but stop acting like this debt relief is consequence free and that objections are petty jealousy.

Similarly, if this is about the economy, and it is an economic stimulus (I agree with you), please tell me what kind of economic conditions require stimulus and what don't, then tell me what the current economic condition is. To insist we need a stimulus but also insist that there is no consequence beggars belief. It makes you a "one handed economist" in the words of FDR.

spot on. I paid my loans back by 32. Sounds like people need to determine what’s college worthy and not college worthy. At this point there is zero chance I would go to college all over again. There’s also zero chance I feel like paying off a bunch of idiots useless liberal arts degrees.

[SumJongGuy]

People in jail on weed charges should be let out of jail, though.

Didn’t emancipation free slaves, not just prevent new enslavement? Should slavery not have ended because it was unfair to the previous people who died enslaved?

And again, a lot of the people who are complaining are people who benefited from a system that didn’t require them to pay as much of their educational costs themselves.

Absolutely.. it was bullshit then that only wealthy people or folks who were willing to get shot at for four years were able to get a a higher education.. And yes, if you paid off your college loans you aren't "poor" and never were.

[Cisco Kid]

Sorry, you lost me at ‘public university’. Why should the public be expected to support, in any way, someone getting a degree that they’re going to benefit from personally?

Amen brother. Why should I pay for someone else's kid to learn how to read.

[shroom]

it’s not about you, you chad

any government/entity worth their salt understands education is what will lead to advancement/power/whatever

underwater weaving and all but without approachable ed we have a populous that will lag globally. if i was in charge making as much education (broad term) available as easily as possible to the masses would be a top goal

but mercian’s are too simple minded to think at scale

[SumJongGuy]

it’s not about you, you chad

any government/entity worth their salt understands education is what will lead to advancement/power/whatever

underwater weaving and all but without approachable ed we have a populous that will lag globally. if i was in charge making as much education (broad term) available as easily as possible to the masses would be a top goal

but mercian’s are too simple minded to think at scale

It's also padding the bank accounts and putting a little more money in the hands of people who put it right back in to the local US economy instead of hording it out of circulation in tax shelters..

[LongShortLong]

Fresh polling out:

https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/stat...Pt0364UKrXj4jw

Single issue polls are an exceptionally bad way to decide policy. The question probably wasn't framed at all. Should we give a bunch of people ice cream? Yay!

Should we take $1000 for every American, including poor grandmas and babies to forgive student loans?
I bet the poll did not ask it in an even-handed way, including the cost. And the results would differ if it did.

Math using an earlier posters "321 Billion dollars of other people's money." and a population of 330 million.

[jfost]

Rich people have like 200k in loans, but only 10k will be cx. They still have to pay the 190k so there’s that…

I guess I kind of agree that the 125k ceiling is debatable, but at that level and below, the money is likely to be spent right back into the economy so that’s good!

[Bunion 2020]

It's also padding the bank accounts and putting a little more money in the hands of people who put it right back in to the local US economy instead of hording it out of circulation in tax shelters..

I guess I kind of agree that the 125k ceiling is debatable, but at that level and below, the money is likely to be spent right back into the economy so that’s good!

Mmmm I thought inflation was bad?

[Name Redacted]

Speaking of inflation, did you know that $125K = $100k in 2015 dollars? I think that a lot of this is people thinking that earning $125K is a lot of money is because they are still holding onto the idea of what money is worth from the mid-2010's back when people used to brag about earning "Six Figures!". Inflation has really thrown people for a loop whether they know it or not.

[Foggy_Goggles]

"I can't afford to pay you more, everything is so expensive!"

If you didn't get a 10% raise this year, you are moving backwards. I hear so such BS from employers regarding inflation. Unfortunately, many employees seem to drink from the firehose. That said, if you ain't willing to bounce, your leverage is minimal.

Back to the topic at hand. Is college just grades 13-16 or is it job training? Does it matter? I work in the construction industry and traditional higher education is doing little other that supply entry level project managers (we've got plenty, thanks). I'd love to see trade schools and apprenticeship programs get back in favor.

[doebedoe]

Speaking of inflation, did you know that $125K = $100k in 2015 dollars? I think that a lot of this is people thinking that earning $125K is a lot of money is because they are still holding onto the idea of what money is worth from the mid-2010's back when people used to brag about earning "Six Figures!". Inflation has really thrown people for a loop whether they know it or not.

I just did the inflation adjustment of my gov't salary 2013-2022 and fuck is that depressing. Sure, making in the 80s aint bad especially in the snow-related world. But 9 years of experience has left me effectively with the same salary as fresh out of grad school working as an analyst.

[Cisco Kid]

My nephew got a BA in Sports Communication. Worked summers installing gunite swimming pools. Got a job as an entry level project manager for a construction company. Now he's the VP. That's all I got to add.

[::: :::]

It is real money that comes from real people and it is finite.

Fed disagrees

[yeahman]

Back to the topic at hand. Is college just grades 13-16 or is it job training? Does it matter? I work in the construction industry and traditional higher education is doing little other that supply entry level project managers (we've got plenty, thanks). I'd love to see trade schools and apprenticeship programs get back in favor.

That's what we should be funding, rather than college degrees. Seems we have plenty of code monkeys etc. but not enough blue collar workers.

[SumJongGuy]

That's what we should be funding, rather than college degrees. Seems we have plenty of code monkeys etc. but not enough blue collar workers.

We've got plenty of blue collar workers. They just need better documentation/immigration reform.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Single issue polls are an exceptionally bad way to decide policy. The question probably wasn't framed at all. Should we give a bunch of people ice cream? Yay!

Should we take $1000 for every American, including poor grandmas and babies to forgive student loans?
I bet the poll did not ask it in an even-handed way, including the cost. And the results would differ if it did.

Math using an earlier posters "321 Billion dollars of other people's money." and a population of 330 million.

Luckily, the wording of the question was right there in the pic I shared. Here, I blew it up for you:

[Foggy_Goggles]

That's what we should be funding, rather than college degrees. Seems we have plenty of code monkeys etc. but not enough blue collar workers.

I have a couple younger friends that equate coding today to the trades of my generation. I can't say they are wrong.

In the grand scheme of the rest of your life, 10-20k ain't much but I do wonder about the message being sent. Is this financial relief for a sector of the population that needs it or is it defacto approval for overpriced college that is not a good investment for anyone?

[J. Barron DeJong]

"I can't afford to pay you more, everything is so expensive!"

If you didn't get a 10% raise this year, you are moving backwards. I hear so such BS from employers regarding inflation. Unfortunately, many employees seem to drink from the firehose. That said, if you ain't willing to bounce, your leverage is minimal.

Back to the topic at hand. Is college just grades 13-16 or is it job training? Does it matter? I work in the construction industry and traditional higher education is doing little other that supply entry level project managers (we've got plenty, thanks). I'd love to see trade schools and apprenticeship programs get back in favor.

Not sure if this was the question, but yes, the loan forgiveness plan covers trade schools and community college as well.

[doebedoe]

There's a public interest in folks getting higher education. Not everyone needs to and I think you could reasonably argue that we've overshot the number who need it compared to other forms of career development in the trades, services, etc. . But if we build a higher education system that is so inaccessible due to costs that only the already rich end up going -- we are truly fucked as a nation. (Or more truly fucked.)

Universal 0 to 5 care and education is probably a more equitable place to be spending public monies than grades 13-16.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Single issue polls are an exceptionally bad way to decide policy. The question probably wasn't framed at all. Should we give a bunch of people ice cream? Yay!

Should we take $1000 for every American, including poor grandmas and babies to forgive student loans?
I bet the poll did not ask it in an even-handed way, including the cost. And the results would differ if it did.

Math using an earlier posters "321 Billion dollars of other people's money." and a population of 330 million.

I guess I don’t really get the concern here either. It’s not like the White House commissioned a poll, thought the numbers looked good, and decided to do this.

The President campaign on this, and then he was elected. Politicians enacting their campaign promises is a good thing!

[Mazderati]

Positioning this as university vs trade is a trap. Both are needed. Both should be available as part of comprehensive education system.