Student Loan Forgiveness

[jono]

Why would a log scale make more sense?

Oh wow. If we graph your posts I think this one approaches the asymptote. Very near the kerosene fire vs. steel melting point. Bravo.

[54-46]

I wonder how many people who got PPP loans or benefited from them via keeping their job/salary are now bitching about the regressive and arbitrary nature of the student loan forgiveness program…


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[Bunion 2020]

^^^ Classic whatabout.

PPP was rolled out during the threat of a global depression and it was a rush job. In this case, what is the rush? Maybe we should try and get this right, starting with the upper end of eligibility.

[Supermoon]

^^^ Classic whatabout.

PPP was rolled out during the threat of a global depression and it was a rush job. In this case, what is the rush? Maybe we should try and get this right, starting with the upper end of eligibility.

Ok, think about it like this:

2/3 of all Pell Grant recipients come from families that made less than $30k a year.

Those kids went to college, got a degree (or not), and have been paying on their loans. If they become successful and start making $75k per year (which honestly isn’t even close to enough to buy a house or start a family in any major metro), why would you exclude them from this benefit? Don’t you think these super successful American-dream type kids might be able to do some good for the economy with that $20k? I’d rather give it to them instead of some old money trust funder who will put it in a hedge fund or blow it on coke in Ibiza.

[Core Shot]

Why not retire all pell loans?

That would be easier. And more fair.

[Supermoon]

Why not retire all pell loans?

That would be easier. And more fair.

Ok, like any critics of this current solution wouldn’t have lost their shit if all the Pell grants were retired. Please. Y’all would be out here screaming the exact same tired talking points about that as you are this.

If that’s a serious question, my guess is that the executive doesn’t have the authority to do it. It would have to come from Congress. But that’s just a guess. Also, there are lots of people with regular loans who are going to benefit from this.

Nothing is stopping Congress from doing more on the front, either. So call your representatives if you want other college cost things done.

[shroom]

i’m just mad we took a post-process approach rather than fixing the problem at source. but fuck the youth am i right?! who needs em

[dunfree]

i’m just mad we took a post-process approach rather than fixing the problem at source. but fuck the youth am i right?! who needs em

the source was the notion everyone should go to college, making it so everyone can go to college (loans), and states/feds proportionally subsidizing less of the cost to student of college. It was a generation of failure

[summit]

So many shitty memes and analogies abound... you can make many valid arguments in favor or debt relief, but the following are absolutely fucking stupid counter arguments to objections:

"Opposing debt relief is like not wanting to magically cure cancer because other people already died!"
1. Nobody randomly got student loans against their will, and loans come with a benefit unlike cancer.
2. Student debt is nowhere so horrible as cancer.
3. Relieving debt is not a magical cure. It takes other people's money and uses it for this purpose of debt relief instead of other purposes.

"Opposing debt relief is like hating Jesus making water into wine because other people paid for their wine."
Debt relief is not done with magic money conjured from the ether by your favorite magic deity waving their hands. It is real money that comes from real people and it is finite.

"You are like a child angry that the other kid got extra ice cream!"
This is a fucking playground game? We are talking about paying off some people's loans with other people's money. 321 Billion dollars of other people's money. Your money and mine. Fair use? Good use? Best use?

You can debate the merits for or against, but stop acting like this debt relief is consequence free and that objections are petty jealousy.

Similarly, if this is about the economy, and it is an economic stimulus (I agree with you), please tell me what kind of economic conditions require stimulus and what don't, then tell me what the current economic condition is. To insist we need a stimulus but also insist that there is no consequence beggars belief. It makes you a "one handed economist" in the words of FDR.

[waveshello]

^^ You can't call it forgiveness if the persons doing the forgiving don't have a choice in the matter.

I still owe 12k on my federal loans (paid almost 30k between my wife and I already), so this would be a windfall for me. Unfortunately, to me it feels like receiving a gift from someone (yay) but then finding out they stole it.

To me it's weird that we're focusing this kind of relief on the people who statistically go on to become the highest earners. It's a reverse robin hood move IMO, and I would continue paying on my loan if it meant we could focus this kind of relief elsewhere (e.g., foster kids, single parents, childcare, immigrants, homeless...)

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[Supermoon]

Ok, here’s another one for you. Biden campaigned on doing this, more people voted for him than any person in history, and he delivered on that promise. Can’t a government just do something that is popular?

Most people are cool with it, economists all basically say it’s fine, and it’s going to help a lot of people. What else need there be?

[Core Shot]

What if the fed took over the loans and made them zero interest?

Compounding debt is a bitch.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Can’t a government just do something that is popular?

Most people are cool with it…

Fresh polling out:



https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/stat...Pt0364UKrXj4jw

[J. Barron DeJong]

So many shitty memes and analogies abound... you can make many valid arguments in favor or debt relief, but the following are absolutely fucking stupid counter arguments to objections:

"Opposing debt relief is like not wanting to magically cure cancer because other people already died!"
1. Nobody randomly got student loans against their will, and loans come with a benefit unlike cancer.
2. Student debt is nowhere so horrible as cancer.
3. Relieving debt is not a magical cure. It takes other people's money and uses it for this purpose of debt relief instead of other purposes.

"Opposing debt relief is like hating Jesus making water into wine because other people paid for their wine."
Debt relief is not done with magic money conjured from the ether by your favorite magic deity waving their hands. It is real money that comes from real people and it is finite.

"You are like a child angry that the other kid got extra ice cream!"
This is a fucking playground game? We are talking about paying off some people's loans with other people's money. 321 Billion dollars of other people's money. Your money and mine. Fair use? Good use? Best use?

You can debate the merits for or against, but stop acting like this debt relief is consequence free and that objections are petty jealousy.

Similarly, if this is about the economy, and it is an economic stimulus (I agree with you), please tell me what kind of economic conditions require stimulus and what don't, then tell me what the current economic condition is. To insist we need a stimulus but also insist that there is no consequence beggars belief. It makes you a "one handed economist" in the words of FDR.

I would point out again that while these students chose to go to college, they didn’t choose when to be born, and they happened to be born at a time that left them having to pay more out of pocket for a college education than any previous generation, due to changes to the system that they had no role in shaping.

[Bunion 2020]

I would point out again that while these students chose to go to college, they didn’t choose when to be born, and they happened to be born at a time that left them having to pay more out of pocket for a college education than any previous generation, due to changes to the system that they had no role in shaping.

And the children born in 1915-1925 didn't get to choose either. But they got a depression and a world war.

I am not against forgiving student loans to those who need the assistance, this seems like too much of a shotgun approach.

[Supermoon]

Just because you feel icky about it doesn’t make it bad policy

[highangle]

And the children born in 1915-1925 didn't get to choose either. But they got a depression and a world war.

I am not against forgiving student loans to those who need the assistance, this seems like too much of a shotgun approach.

What about the kids born in 1650-1658? Depressions, civil wars, plagues, Puritanism, piracy... Your argument seems specious.

[J. Barron DeJong]

And the children born in 1915-1925 didn't get to choose either. But they got a depression and a world war.

I am not against forgiving student loans to those who need the assistance, this seems like too much of a shotgun approach.

Well, a lot of these students graduated into the worst job market since the Great Depression, so there’s that. Oh, and there were some pretty big programs to help those who fought in WWII get a good education.

I do not in any way think this is perfect, but I think many of the problems come down to what can and can’t be accomplished through executive order. If you have any idea on how to get at least 60 Senators to support a more comprehensive/efficient plan, I’m all ears.

[highangle]

"The University of California, originally consisting solely of UC Berkeley’s campus, has the distinction of being California’s first public university. At the UC system’s inception, tuition was free for California residents. Over the years, student fees increased, and by the 1970s, the university moved away from free tuition for residents...


...
1921: Though tuition is still free, California residents are now required to pay an “incidental fee” of $25 per year to cover services not related to instruction. Tuition for nonresidents is $75 per year.

1956: Incidental fee is $84 per year. Tuition for nonresidents is $300 per year. Tuition is still “free” for California residents.
...

"


Nowadays, the major UC schools are some of the hardest to get into in the country. UCLA has ~17% acceptance rate...
Of course, well,

Nobel Prize winners

As of October 2021, the following data are taken from List of Nobel laureates by university affiliation, which counts university alumni and staff, and are not the official count from the University of California.

Campus	Nr. of winners	Founded	Nr. of Winners/ 10 years of age
Berkeley	110	1868	7.2
San Diego	28	1960	4.6
Los Angeles	27	1919	2.6
Santa Barbara	14	1909	1.8
San Francisco	10	1864	0.7
Irvine	7	1965	1.3
Davis	4	1905	0.3
Riverside	3	1954	0.4
Santa Cruz	1	1965	0.2
Merced	0	2005	0

[Foggy_Goggles]

How about medical debt forgiveness, business start up cost forgiveness, tuition payment forgiveness or about a million of types of forgiveness that may or may not provide assistance to those that may or may not be deserving base on some arbitrary metric.

It doesn't really bug me, we've got bigger problems but fuck me has our federal government been incompetent for decades!

[Supermoon]

Let’s do all those too! No argument here.

[Bunion 2020]

Well, a lot of these students graduated into the worst job market since the Great Depression, so there’s that. Oh, and there were some pretty big programs to help those who fought in WWII get a good education.

provided they survived.

I do not in any way think this is perfect, but I think many of the problems come down to what can and can’t be accomplished through executive order. If you have any idea on how to get at least 60 Senators to support a more comprehensive/efficient plan, I’m all ears.

Get more people to vote D would be a good start.

[dunfree]

[QUOTE=Summer;6674818]

How about medical debt forgiveness, business start up cost forgiveness, tuition payment forgiveness or about a million of types of forgiveness that may or may not provide assistance to those that may or may not be deserving base on some arbitrary metric.

It doesn't really bug me, we've got bigger problems but fuck me has our federal government been incompetent for decades!

incompetence isn’t just something your culture warring because you need to blend in with bros dumb ass doesn’t like

[dunfree]

provided they survived.

most did? The shrapnel a relative had in his skull caused him problems, but ww2 wasn’t a culling of the us

[J. Barron DeJong]

Get more people to vote D would be a good start.

I’d say getting rid of the filibuster would be a good start (which I guess, yes, two more D Senators are probably required to get that done). There’s no reason you should need 60% votes to pass laws. It wasn’t ever part of the Framer’s intent, and didn’t become a regular feature of the Senate until the past decade or so. But this is definitely trending into Poly-Ass, so I’m not going to say anymore about that.