Student Loan Forgiveness

[Supermoon]

Exactly.

Thus my point that this is a huge amount of public money benefitting a certain subset of the the middle and upper classes with unfair distribution.

So what you're saying is we should just scrap all the social programs and pay everyone a universal basic income regardless of need?

[uglymoney]

I think you (Summit) were probably worth 10k of forgiveness to the people you serve as a healthcare professional in Colorado. I have no problem with that.

I see your points but policy compromises never result in perfection.

Yeah, Republicans are going to have a party with this one. Oh well.

https://twitter.com/RiegerReport/sta...LM2NP_GIQ&s=19

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[J. Barron DeJong]

I think you (Summit) were probably worth 10k of forgiveness to the people you serve as a healthcare professional in Colorado. I have no problem with that.

I see your points but policy compromises never result in perfection.

Yeah, Republicans are going to have a party with this one. Oh well.

https://twitter.com/RiegerReport/sta...LM2NP_GIQ&s=19

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[summit]

So, because the poorest people are less likely to have student loans, we shouldn't address student loan problems? That's weird. And as someone who worked in welfare programs, let me tell you, nobody wants to give money to the poorest people. Sure, it sucks, but I don't see what poor people who don't have student loans has to do with this, and I still think your argument here is weird. Households making under $75k are not rolling in money, middle class might even overstate it depending on where they live. But you're acting like because they're not dirt poor, they shouldn't get this benefit. Even though the benefit that is also available to the dirt poor if they have student loans.

First, The Biden graphic was for INDIVIDUAL BORROWER INCOMES <75K. NOT households. The household could still be making anywhere up to 250K.

Second, you point out it is wrong timing vs being effective in garnering votes... I must agree that is a good point.

To respond to your main point:

If we agree we are talking about giving money to the middle and upper class with student loans, sounds like we agree on this, then why shouldn't this be done in a fairer and more considered approach instead on an executive order measured in hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars???

These are people who are benefiting from their education on which the loan was based. These people tend to have more complex finances, usually several types of debt, and I think fairness matters:
Person A hates the idea of debt and made extra payments on their student loan to get rid of their SL.
Person B took the same extra money and instead paid off their car, put money in an IRA and opened a 529 but still has their student loan.
Person C who isn't going to open their student loan until next year in the same fucked up system that caused person A & B to take out loans

Why does only person B get their debt cancelled?

If you want to help poor people with college, means test and boost grants, also forgive lower class student debt. (Bennet's points)
If you want to help people who were taken advantage of by unscrupulous colleges, regulate the colleges and forgive that debt. (Many people made this point)
If you want to address the cost of education, then reform the entire concept of nondischargable government backed student loans. (My solution)

If you want to give a stimulus to the middle and upper class, then give even tax credits instead of arbitrary handouts, which is what this mostly is.

[Danno]

Danno mentioned if it were votes, they would have done it so people would have the money in hand by the time they vote. I disagree-there's no money going into anybody's hands and the payments were already deferred and have been. This will probably get tied up in some lawsuits and they'll flop the roll-out. They needed something in the news cycle. Might do them more harm than good...we'll see how calculated both sides are.

fair point, I hadn't considered that nobody is actually paying right now.

[doebedoe]

On this we agree.

A one time handout to a poorly targeted group of current loan holders does nothing to fix the system.

The 10K handout is the headline.

The reduction of income-based repayments to 5% and curtailing of interest while minimum payments are made are far significant patch to a fucked up system. Does it fix it? No. Does it help a fuckton of middle-income earners have 5% more of their income to put towards a house to live in or groceries on the table without racking up interest-driven debt to over their principal? Yes.

[::: :::]

If we agree we are talking about giving money to the middle and upper class with student loans,

none of this affects upper class incomes, just stop with that line of argument...it's disingenuous
middle class incomes, yes

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...d%20of%20three.

Who is middle income or middle class?
In this analysis, “middle-income” adults in 2021 are those with an annual household income that was two-thirds to double the national median income in 2020, after incomes have been adjusted for household size, or about $52,000 to $156,000 annually in 2020 dollars for a household of three. “Lower-income” adults have household incomes less than $52,000 and “upper-income” adults have household incomes greater than $156,000.

The income it takes to be middle income varies by household size, with smaller households requiring less to support the same lifestyle as larger households. The boundaries of the income tiers also vary across years with changes in the national median income. Read the methodology for more details.

The terms “middle income” and “middle class” are used interchangeably in this analysis for the sake of exposition. But being middle class can refer to more than just income, be it the level of education, the type of profession, economic security, home ownership, or one’s social and political values. Class also could simply be a matter of self-identification.

[NWFlow]

Why does only person B get their debt cancelled?

I agree that seems unfair, and would likely be pretty bummed out if i were person A

[summit]

none of this affects upper class incomes, just stop with that line of argument...it's disingenuous
middle class incomes, yes

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...d%20of%20three.

Their definition for upper income is HOUSEHOLD >152K.

Debt can be cancelled for household incomes up to 250K!

I've said this affects middle and upper class. My statement is accurate and not being disingenuous at all!

[J. Barron DeJong]

“A Penn Wharton analysis found that, with $10,000 in forgiveness and the income cap, about 58 percent of the benefit would accrue to people in the bottom 60 percent of incomes, and another 28 percent for the fourth income quintile. It also found that the income cap saves a piddling $15 billion. However, Bruenig points out that the Wharton model is based on the Survey of Consumer Finances, which greatly understates the amount of student debt held by the poorest people. He estimates that the bottom quintile should receive about 20 percent of the benefit, and the bottom three-fifths about 65 percent. The $20,000 for Pell grant recipients (which wasn’t reported until now and thus hasn’t been analyzed yet) will make it even more progressive.”

https://prospect.org/education/joe-b...-a-good-start/

[Conundrum]

Debt can be cancelled for household incomes up to 250K!

Can it? I haven't read enough to know so serious question. Say spouse A earns $200k and has student loans and Spouse B earns $40k and has students loans. Does both spouse A and B get the $10k or just B? Or is it how they file taxes?

[sb]

You will own nothing and like it.

[summit]

Can it? I haven't read enough to know so serious question. Say spouse A earns $200k and has student loans and Spouse B earns $40k and has students loans. Does both spouse A and B get the $10k or just B? Or is it how they file taxes?

I assume it has to be based on tax filings based on the way the PR is written. I don't think anyone has seen the written rule.

Individuals with incomes up to 125K can cancel 10K (20K if they had Pell)
Married couples with incomes up to 250k combined could EACH cancel 10K (or 20K each if they had Pell)

The way the WH press release reads isn't super precise because they don't say if the income limit is gross income, AGI, MAGI, or what, whether it is 2021, 2022, or some average...

[Supermoon]

Can it? I haven't read enough to know so serious question. Say spouse A earns $200k and has student loans and Spouse B earns $40k and has students loans. Does both spouse A and B get the $10k or just B? Or is it how they file taxes?

I think both, but tax code doesn’t really split it out like that for any other tax incentive so why would it be split out for this?

Why over complicate things to try and solve weird edge cases instead of making it simple and easy to implement? It would probably cost more to enforce something like that than you’d save in just paying out for everyone.

[AK47bp]

Bob is a trustfunder who moves to a ski resort out of highschool, tends bar and cranks out an associates degree, marries a hot lifty in the same classes, and at 24 they both go and finish a bachelors degree in nursing/engineering/compsci/whatever, parental income is excluded from FAFSA, so they get pell grants and fed loans. 4 years after graduating they are both 30, making $300k combined, but with pretax dollars going to retirement, HSA, insurance, their AGI is just under 250K household limit and they qualify for 40K of debt cancellation.

Yes, that hypothetical is not the common case, but why is it a case at all?

This is fucking bullshit.







A hot lifty?



I’ve been skiing for 36 years and seen maybe 2 or 3.


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[The AD]

Their definition for upper income is HOUSEHOLD >152K.

Debt can be cancelled for household incomes up to 250K!

I've said this affects middle and upper class. I'm not being disingenuous at all!

I don't have the numbers, but obviously most kids coming from a truly upper class upbringing are not shackled with unpaid student loans. They just aren't.

[summit]

I don't have the numbers, but obviously most kids coming from a truly upper class upbringing are not shackled with unpaid student loans. They just aren't.

We aren't talking about their upbringing (except the assumption that Pell recipients didn't come from upper class families).

We are mostly talking about what student loan holders are earning for income in whatever snapshot of time this random ass rule declares (I'm wagering 2021 AGI).

[alpinevibes]

If this is purely pandering, it is dumb pandering, and not for the reason Summit thinks (ie they miscalculated politically). It's too close to the election, especially with early voting. Some people will be voting in less than 2 months. If this was pure pandering, it should have been implemented a few months ago, so voters would see the money in their pockets before they go vote.

Well... no money would really be going to anyone's pockets at this point anyways. Most people haven't "had" to make payments for the last few years and now they've just been told they don't "have to" make payments till 2023. AND most of them are getting $10k forgiven. I'd say pretty good timing, politically.

[J. Barron DeJong]

We aren't talking about their upbringing (except the assumption that Pell recipients didn't come from upper class families).

We are mostly talking about what student loan holders are earning for income in whatever snapshot of time this random ass rule declares (I'm wagering 2021 AGI).

Can submit 2020 or 2021 income. Not sure what income definition they’re using.

[Conundrum]

I think both, but tax code doesn’t really split it out like that for any other tax incentive so why would it be split out for this?

Why over complicate things to try and solve weird edge cases instead of making it simple and easy to implement? It would probably cost more to enforce something like that than you’d save in just paying out for everyone.

More questions than answers I guess. I ask because this isn't a tax incentive. It's debt forgiveness.

[fastfred]

yawn

so they got everyone worked up about this stupid ass shit and everyone is debating this like it's a big issue
meanwhile no one is paying attention to what is really going on amazing how the political/gov't machine works so well against us
the fuck ups who tune into the 24 hr news channels and spend all day jerking off on twitter and facebook can't get enough of this dick stroking

meanwhile nancy's husband was able to not show up to court this week and his lawyer pleaded guilty for him on a dwi charge in napa valley a drunk 80 year old dude driving around that's ok? take his fucking license from him please but he got a slap on the wrist and didn't have to goto court amazing how the court system is rigged so well for the wealthy and powerful but some poor fuck who gets popped for dwi is sure as hell be required to show up in court

[SumJongGuy]

Trae's take on this posted yet??

https://twitter.com/traecrowder/stat...22844537294850

[J. Barron DeJong]

yawn

so they got everyone worked up about this stupid ass shit and everyone is debating this like it's a big issue
meanwhile no one is paying attention to what is really going on amazing how the political/gov't machine works so well against us
the fuck ups who tune into the 24 hr news channels and spend all day jerking off on twitter and facebook can't get enough of this dick stroking

meanwhile nancy's husband was able to not show up to court this week and his lawyer pleaded guilty for him on a dwi charge in napa valley a drunk 80 year old dude driving around that's ok? take his fucking license from him please but he got a slap on the wrist and didn't have to goto court amazing how the court system is rigged so well for the wealthy and powerful but some poor fuck who gets popped for dwi is sure as hell be required to show up in court

Yes, that’s the biggest scandal involving rich and famous politicians happening right now.

[Supermoon]

That’s pretty good

[The AD]

We aren't talking about their upbringing (except the assumption that Pell recipients didn't come from upper class families).

We are mostly talking about what student loan holders are earning for income in whatever snapshot of time this random ass rule declares (I'm wagering 2021 AGI).

Buy you're saying this will mainly affect middle and upper class individuals. I just don't think it's really going to affect upper class individuals much. Yeah, there may be the rare case where someone still has loans and is currently making bank, but that's got to be the exception.