Student Loan Forgiveness

[summit]

Median -household- income in CO is about $75k.

I'm going to assume you are not being intentionally disingenuous by mixing up individual and household medians.

CO INDIVIDUAL medium income is what Bennet was talking about targeting as a cap, is 39K in CO. Not 75K. Not 125K.

The bar chart the Biden admin put up was that this helps mostly helps INDIVIDIUAL incomes <75K while the national medium INDIVDUAL income is 31K for 2019. The cutoff for debt cancellation for an INDIVIDUAL income is 125K.

You can have a HOUSEHOLD income of 250K and still get your 10-20K of debt cancelled! The national median HOUSEHOLD income is 63K vs the 250K limit!

My point is that this mostly helps middle and upper class people, not people below the median income, either household or individual.

This is an economically regressive payout of public funds without any attempt to solve the underlying problem. It give the appearance of vote buying before an election.

[sirbumpsalot]

total agreement

I would add though that don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. We give away so much goddam money to corporations, to banks, to factory farms, etc, yet THIS is what gets people up in arms.

People have been up in arms over free gvmt money for banks, corps, and farms for decades....this is just a new one to add to the list. Take your blinders off.

[J. Barron DeJong]

This is an economically regressive payout of public funds without any attempt to solve the underlying problem. It give the appearance of vote buying before an election.

What is the acceptable timeframe to do something that benefits voters? There are elections every two years, so right around never?

Payback is capped at 5% of annual income, vs. 10% previously. Also, loans are discharged after 10 years, vs. 20 years previously. That’s progressive.

Not every individual policy has to be fair for everyone, and sometimes you take what you can get.

[Supermoon]

Also, as much as you want it to be true, I don’t think it’s a giveaway ti the upper class. The data I’ve seen says otherwise

[PNWbrit]

Dumbest part.

"I didn’t finish my degree. Does that disqualify me?

No."

There must be better ways to have done this and agree with Summit the income limits seem higher than they need to be.

[Supermoon]

No it fucking isn't. Tell that to my 33 year old friend and his wife who is dying of cancer right now.

You don't choose cancer.

You do choose student loans.

Fuck your comparison.

Take a deep breath. Nobody is diminishing the impact of cancer on all of our lives. I had a good friend lose his battle at 32 and left a wife and two kids. It’s fucking brutal.

All I’m saying is that not helping people who need help because it isn’t “fair” for everyone is a bad way to do things

[J. Barron DeJong]

Dumbest part.

"I didn’t finish my degree. Does that disqualify me?

No."

If that’s the dumbest part, then it sounds like a really good policy to me.

[NWFlow]

And with the amount of money pissed away by the govt the last few years (or even decades), I'm just happy a bit goes to helping, at least peripherally, educate the populous.

[summit]

Bob is a trustfunder who moves to a ski resort out of highschool, tends bar and cranks out an associates degree, marries a hot lifty in the same classes, and at 24 they both go and finish a bachelors degree in nursing/engineering/compsci/whatever, parental income is excluded from FAFSA, so they get pell grants and fed loans. 4 years after graduating they are both 30, making $300k combined, but with pretax dollars going to retirement, HSA, insurance, their AGI is just under 250K household limit and they qualify for 40K of debt cancellation.

Yes, that hypothetical is not the common case, but why is it a case at all?

[NWFlow]

And someone making 40k teaching public school (for example) would still get their loans forgiven, right? 40k<125k

I do understand the unfairness, however, but it just seems like an ok place for govt money to go, as far as those things go .

[J. Barron DeJong]

Bob is a trustfunder who moves to a ski resort out of highschool, tends bar and cranks out an associates degree, marries a hot lifty in the same classes, and at 24 they both go and finish a bachelors degree in nursing/engineering/compsci/whatever, parental income is excluded from FAFSA, so they get pell grants and fed loans. 4 years after graduating they are both 30, making $300k combined, but with pretax dollars going to retirement, HSA, insurance, their AGI is just under 250K household limit and they qualify for 40K of debt cancellation.

Yes, that hypothetical is not the common case, but why is it a case at all?

Because trying to eliminate every hypothetical fringe case creates undue burdens on everyone else.

If they’re making $300k four years out of college, debt forgiveness is going to be a wash over their lifetimes. Want more money from them? Raise marginal tax rates on high incomes.

[NWFlow]

Because trying to eliminate every hypothetical fringe case creates undue burdens on everyone else.

And most importantly, doesn't exclude the recipients for whom the benefits are primarily intended .

[Danno]

People have been up in arms over free gvmt money for banks, corps, and farms for decades....this is just a new one to add to the list. Take your blinders off.

If by up in arms you mean they complain about it but vote for the people who continue to give those out?

Bob is a trustfunder who moves to a ski resort out of highschool, tends bar and cranks out an associates degree, marries a hot lifty in the same classes, and at 24 they both go and finish a bachelors degree in nursing/engineering/compsci/whatever, parental income is excluded from FAFSA, so they get pell grants and fed loans. 4 years after graduating they are both 30, making $300k combined, but with pretax dollars going to retirement, HSA, insurance, their AGI is just under 250K household limit and they qualify for 40K of debt cancellation.

Yes, that hypothetical is not the common case, but why is it a case at all?

If this isn't the classic "letting the perfect be the enemy of the good" example I don't know what is.

I don't think anyone here, ANYONE, is arguing that the policy as announced is perfect, or that we wouldn't change a thing even if we could.

[J. Barron DeJong]

And most importantly, doesn't exclude the recipients for whom the benefits are primarily intended .

Right.

There are so many programs aimed at helping the less fortunate that aren’t taken advantage of by those eligible because of all the hurdles put up to make sure no ‘undeserving’ people can get it.

[summit]

What is the acceptable timeframe to do something that benefits voters? There are elections every two years, so right around never?

How about the last 18 months instead of 2.5 months before the election?

Payback is capped at 5% of annual income, vs. 10% previously. Also, loans are discharged after 10 years, vs. 20 years previously. That’s progressive.

So that is probably where the $321B+ is coming from.

If I take out the fed limit of ~200K in undergrad and grad loans because I can, get a 100k a year job, then pay 5k/yr for 10 years, then I'll have paid less than 20% of the loan off, the rest gets paid by everyone's taxes... but I'm still upper middle class.

This is NOT progressive. It is REGRESSIVE as fuck AND fucking stupid AND unsustainable! It encourages the taking of larger loans with no expectation of payoff!

Not every individual policy has to be fair for everyone, and sometimes you take what you can get.

One can ask for a better standard than this bullshit. Anything is not always better than nothing. Fairness does matter.

[riser4]

Thing#2 moved back in with us so that he can limit his future loans to tuition only. We'll see how long that lasts.

[summit]

If they’re making $300k four years out of college, debt forgiveness is going to be a wash over their lifetimes.

You think this is about them?

This is about where that 40K of taxpayer money goes. Is it going the right place?

The point is a couple making 300K gross could be getting 40K, whether they are 1 years into their loans or 9 years. (And yes a computer programmer + nurse couple can easily crack 300K 4 years out of school).

Should that 40K go to them? Is this how we are responsibly spending taxpayer dollars? $321B of government dollars by executive order.

The numbers and thresholds here are so fucking fucked up and you all are saying "well perfect shouldn't be the enemy of good." They didn't even address the underlying problems. This ineptitude plus the timing invites the accusation of pandering for votes via governing by decree. The insanity of these numbers is why this shouldn't be an executive order...

If this is good enough, you have some very low standards and expect about nothing from your elected officials.

A lot of people are going to be sour on this from liberals to centrists to conservatives.

[k2skier112]

People have been up in arms over free gvmt money for banks, corps, and farms for decades....this is just a new one to add to the list. Take your blinders off.

One of those makes the uber rich, richer. The other keeps normal folks from bankruptcy

[sirbumpsalot]

If by up in arms you mean they complain about it but vote for the people who continue to give those out?

Yes...nearly everyone in congress continues to give out the taxpayers money and incumbents keep getting voted in.

[NWFlow]

Wait, so one doesn't need to ever fully pay off the loan? Whatever is left on the balance after 10 years (previously 20) just goes away, paid by taxes?

[summit]

Wait, so one doesn't need to ever fully pay off the loan? Whatever is left on the balance after 10 years (previously 20) just goes away, paid by taxes?

That is how JBDJ put it... seems a little insane even for this EO?

[J. Barron DeJong]

You think this is about them?

This is about where that 40K of taxpayer money goes. Is it going the right place?

The point is a couple making 300K gross could be getting 40K, whether they are 1 years into their loans or 9 years. (And yes a computer programmer + nurse couple can easily crack 300K 4 years out of school).

Should that 40K go to them? Is this how we are responsibly spending taxpayer dollars? $321B of government dollars by executive order.

The numbers and thresholds here are so fucking fucked up and you all are saying "well perfect shouldn't be the enemy of good." They didn't even address the underlying problems. This ineptitude plus the timing invites the accusation of pandering for votes via governing by decree. The insanity of these numbers is why this shouldn't be an executive order...

If this is good enough, you have some very low standards and expect about nothing from your elected officials.

A lot of people are going to be sour on this from liberals to centrists to conservatives.

So you’re saying this buy-off of the electorate is making them unfavorable to the electorate?

[sirbumpsalot]

One of those makes the uber rich, richer. The other keeps normal folks from bankruptcy

Always the other guy....not my guy. This should answer your question Danno.

[summit]

All I’m saying is that not helping people who need help because it isn’t “fair” for everyone is a bad way to do things

Sure. Nothing is perfect. But when you reach into the public's pocket, who are you MOSTLY going to help?

My point is that this mostly helps middle and upper class people, not people below the median income.

[oldnew_guy]

Sure. Nothing is perfect. But when you reach into the public's pocket, who are you MOSTLY going to help?

Rich people usually.