Student Loan Forgiveness

[summit]

measuring degrees by work inputed is Marxist dipshittery anyways; music degrees can require incredible effort and talent but generally aren’t worth shit

Measuring cost of inputs is not marxist. Degrees cost time and money. Most degrees cost about the same from the same school. The time inputs vary.

STEM typically takes more time. If you have a degree that costs less time, you have more time to work a job to pay down monetary costs which effectively lowers the total cost of the degree. Or you can spend the excess time playing sportsball and partying.

People spend time and money how they choose. It isn't my concern until they want me to pay for their choices.

[Conundrum]

The local McDonald franchise owner here is starting folks at $14/hr with tuition assistance and the guarantee of working around your class schedule.

[Mustonen]

Speak for yourself. You always assume. I didn't fuck for 2 kids and put a wife under me. Might be a good lesson for them, all three of the last sentences.

I… what? I am speaking for myself. That’s what I was doing. I don’t understand what you’re after here.

My point is just that we aren’t really structured very well for students to work full time and actually finish school without taking out student loans or without a benefactor, and I suspect the systems in place will break a little or a lot if that ever becomes something other than the exception.

[Mustonen]

I haven't read the myriad of responses, but this statement should tell you that it's BS
"I’ve held off on paying that off ever since this has been in the wind. From that perspective, sure, let’s do it. "

And what??
"It’s obviously not really equitable. I’m not sure it has to be. The whining from those that due to timing or paying off early didn’t get the benefit feels hollow,"

Whining? So people who are responsible and take accountability for their actions are whining because they don't want slackers to get off and don;t want to pay slackers bills?? Mind blown.

I wasn’t using either as justification for it, and the conflict presented therein is what I was looking to resolve.

And yeah, worrying about what somebody else is getting is whining. Shit ain’t fair. Sorry man.

[MakersTeleMark]

I… what? I am speaking for myself. That’s what I was doing. I don’t understand what you’re after here.

My point is just that we aren’t really structured very well for students to work full time and actually finish school without taking out student loans or without a benefactor, and I suspect the systems in place will break a little or a lot if that ever becomes something other than the exception.

My point is that even though I, like you, found myself capable of working a real life full time job while attending school full time and supporting a family

That. And who is fucking, "we"?

[oldnew_guy]

MTM reminds me a lot of Benny Profane.

[Mustonen]

That. And who is fucking, "we"?

Oh. Sorry. You weren’t capable of doing it. I thought you’d said that upthread. My bad.

By “we” I was referring to our current system, generally. I’m undoubtedly wrong, and am looking forward to you telling me why.

Or not.

[MakersTeleMark]

MTM reminds me a lot of Benny Profane.

You obviously haven't met us.

[dunfree]

Measuring cost of inputs is not marxist. Degrees cost time and money. Most degrees cost about the same from the same school. The time inputs vary.

STEM typically takes more time. If you have a degree that costs less time, you have more time to work a job to pay down monetary costs which effectively lowers the total cost of the degree. Or you can spend the excess time playing sportsball and partying.

People spend time and money how they choose. It isn't my concern until they want me to pay for their choices.

you are arguing a stem degree is more valuable because of the labor inputed by the student (worker). Labor theory of value

[skaredshtles]

<snip> If the NFL/NBA etc. wants a feeder program that badly, they can pay for it themselves.

A million times this.

[Mustonen]

^^ Like they pay for their stadiums?

[MakersTeleMark]

Oh. Sorry. You weren’t capable of doing it. I thought you’d said that upthread. My bad.

By “we” I was referring to our current system, generally. I’m undoubtedly wrong, and am looking forward to you telling me why.

Or not.

Look, bud, you married a chick, took her under your wing and bread a few. Now you are stating that that quality of life isn't obtainable for the majority of folks. No shit Sherlock. But don't put those choices on me. I pay a price for being solo, whether that being without the emotional support of a partner, or loving offspring, but you know what they say about renting.

[summit]

you are arguing a stem degree is more valuable because of the labor inputed by the student (worker). Labor theory of value

Never said anything of the kind. I cannot even see where you might have misinterpreted me as to having made such a claim.

Degree value in terms of earning potential is determined by the market, supply vs demand. Costs are higher for STEM in terms of time and effort, typically, but not much more expensive in terms of money.

That makes STEMs a great deal if you can hack it, and most cannot hack it, which keeps supply lower.

My point is that most non-STEM degrees can more easily offset some cost because they have more time available to either shorten their college stay by taking more classes, or to instead earn money to defray the monetary cost of school.

[Mustonen]

Look, bud, you married a chick, took her under your wing and bread a few. Now you are stating that that quality of life isn't obtainable for the majority of folks. No shit Sherlock. But don't put those choices on me. I pay a price for being solo, whether that being without the emotional support of a partner, or loving offspring, but you know what they say about renting.

Good god you’re fucking tedious. You were able to work full time and school full time and didn’t get caught up with any breeding and are AMAZING and I’m sorry the world isn’t up to your standards. You win and we all worship your accomplishments.

In the meantime, I’m just questioning whether a standard like that is either practical or even desirable.

[MakersTeleMark]

In the meantime, I’m just questioning whether a standard like that is either practical or even desirable.

Tedious? I think you and only you can answer that above question. I think we all ask ourselves that question about our prior choices as we age.

[::: :::]

My point is that most non-STEM degrees can more easily offset cost because they have more time available to earn money to defray the monetary cost of school.

sorry, but pure speculation
any serious degree requires rigor

[MakersTeleMark]

sorry, but pure speculation

I concur. Ask the Whole Foods checker with a PhD, but I'm getting into Fredzone here.

[rod9301]

There is a nice 5 page thread on this that was bumped this morning. It is hilarious to imagine this is not a polyass topic when it is a governmental policy action and highly political.

https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...lace-your-bets!!!!!

I don't think forgiveness is the ethical thing for the government to do. It does not promote equality. It favors those who have gone to college and by definition are going to be higher earners while leaving out in the cold those who favored fiscal responsibility when thus pursuing education. None of these things play well in Peoria, as literally everyone else then pays for this. Student Loan forgiveness seems like a progressive cause that is actually a trap. So will the Dems throw themselves on such a grenade?

It's a one time hand wave transferring the debt of the still indebted (petit) bourgeoise to the general public. It doesn't help the rich or the poor, nor the middle class tradespeople or those who already paid off their debt. Why is forgiving that set of borrowers more proper than canceling some car loans?

This does absolutely zilch to solve the underlying issues of runaway costs in higher ed. It is also insane to print a bunch more money (this is a targeted stimulus) when we are launching interest rates towards the sky to combat inflation.

MIDTERMS!

Agree that it does nothing to combat the high cost of college. What would work is to abolish the crazy student loan program which benefits banks and universities.
So i think the forgiveness should be done at the same time with restructuring the student loan program.

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[Bunion 2020]

Can we all at the very least agree that what worked or didn't work for us is merely 1 data point and past results may not meet current expectation?

Agree that it does nothing to combat the high cost of college. What would work is to abolish the crazy student loan program which benefits banks and universities.
So i think the forgiveness should be done at the same time with restructuring the student loan program.

I agree, if loans are Gubamint backed there should be little to no interest changed and a minor amount of service fees as a public ummm service.

[nickwm21]

Maybe a different thread - But regardless of this loan repayment discussion; I think we need to rethink the higher education system, the government should sponsor two more years of education (beyond 12th grade) where the student can choose from various programs: trade schools, first responder academies, medical tech schools, etc… or a “college prep” program where you knock out your prereqs…

You’d be killing a few birds with this stone…
- Promoting trade and tech schools and adding additional education time where you could cover undergrad level basics; econ101, acct101, maybe some arts and history….
- Adding needed education time for first responder academies to address the challenges those careers see in our fucked up society (see how Europe trains their police vs the USA…)
- Pumping the brakes on the 4 year college status quo. Give students time before they decide they want to spend $100k on this or that degree… Get your prereqs done in a cheaper environment. One can focus on their major coursework when they get to university…


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[Mustonen]

Can we all at the very least agree that what worked or didn't work for us is merely 1 data point and past results may not meet current expectation?

This, forfucksake.

[dunfree]

Never said anything of the kind. I cannot even see where you might have misinterpreted me as to having made such a claim.

Degree value in terms of earning potential is determined by the market, supply vs demand. Costs are higher for STEM in terms of time and effort, typically, but not much more expensive in terms of money.

That makes STEMs a great deal if you can hack it, and most cannot hack it, which keeps supply lower.

My point is that most non-STEM degrees can more easily offset some cost because they have more time available to either shorten their college stay by taking more classes, or to instead earn money to defray the monetary cost of school.

engineers are always deludedly stupid in thinking people can’t hack it, and generally are the last to realize work smarter not harder.

[dunfree]

Maybe a different thread - But regardless of this loan repayment discussion; I think we need to rethink the higher education system, the government should sponsor two more years of education (beyond 12th grade) where the student can choose from various programs: trade schools, first responder academies, medical tech schools, etc… or a “college prep” program where you knock out your prereqs…

You’d be killing a few birds with this stone…
- Promoting trade and tech schools and adding additional education time where you could cover undergrad level basics; econ101, acct101, maybe some arts and history….
- Adding needed education time for first responder academies to address the challenges those careers see in our fucked up society (see how Europe trains their police vs the USA…)
- Pumping the brakes on the 4 year college status quo. Give students time before they decide they want to spend $100k on this or that degree… Get your prereqs done in a cheaper environment. One can focus on their major coursework when they get to university…


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why waste two years of peoples lives in schools employers don’t value?

[skaredshtles]

^^ Like they pay for their stadiums?

Also this. Fuck pro sportsball.

[skaredshtles]

Maybe a different thread - But regardless of this loan repayment discussion; I think we need to rethink the higher education system, the government should sponsor two more years of education (beyond 12th grade) where the student can choose from various programs: trade schools, first responder academies, medical tech schools, etc… or a “college prep” program where you knock out your prereqs…

You’d be killing a few birds with this stone…
- Promoting trade and tech schools and adding additional education time where you could cover undergrad level basics; econ101, acct101, maybe some arts and history….
- Adding needed education time for first responder academies to address the challenges those careers see in our fucked up society (see how Europe trains their police vs the USA…)
- Pumping the brakes on the 4 year college status quo. Give students time before they decide they want to spend $100k on this or that degree… Get your prereqs done in a cheaper environment. One can focus on their major coursework when they get to university…

I agree. We, as a nation, generally agreed that K-12 education for everyone was important... in the mid-1800's. To think that, in the modern world, that this is still sufficient seems delusional.

K-16 seems like it should be a no-brainer as a 1st world nation that values an educated populace.

Oh, wait.