Ask the experts

[rideit]

The bike being brand new is no guarantee that the hanger is straight, they are often a little out of alignment out of the box. I would start there.
Shimano 12 derailluers all look a little bent/funky when you first see them, fwiw.

[detrusor]

Assuming you put new cables and housing on if it’s new. Check to make sure the cable moves friction free


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[Dee Hubbs]

Any tips to smooth out shifting on Shimano 12 speed? If I get it shifting good in the bigger sprockets, it's way off on the smaller ones and vise versa. XT shifter/chain, SLX derailleur/cassette. Chain, housing, cables brand new, bike is brand new so hangar is straight, and was having this issue to a lesser extent on the old bike. B screw and limiters seem to be fine. Out of ideas to try. Derailleur looks a little crooked, but it looks like it was built that way, trying to avoid buying a new one, especially if it could be the shifter.

12 speed is really sensitive to B-Tension adjustment, but if its shifting well in only a few gears, and bad in only a few gears its your hanger alignment.

12 Speed set up:
1st step - straight hanger
2nd step - chain length, Big ring to big ring (not though derailleur). Full Suspension is 5-6 links plus quick link, Hard Tail = 4-5 links plus quick link
3rd Step - Adjust the low limit and adjust the high limit.
4th Step - Adjust the B-Tension with suspension at sag.

hers the Shimano manual:
https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-MARD001-00-ENG.pdf

[climberevan]

Some of you may recall that I've been pretty skeptical of chain wax, aka Queso. I try not to be irrationally stubborn, though, and good points have been made in favor of it.

So, since it's been cold here and I've been doing a bunch of bike upgrades, I decided to try out out on the road bike. A few thoughts:

1: It's just as much of a giant hassle to clean the chain like MSW recommends as I expected. It took 1 session with degreaser, then 4 mineral spirits baths, then 2 denatured alcohol baths for a used chain, but fewer for a new one. They want you to clean your cassette, rings, and pulleys just as well. It's a lot of used solvent by the end.

2: MSW dries a lot harder than the old candle wax i used in the 90s.

3: 200deg wax does not burn the fingers immediately, but it does stick to them tenaciously.

I opted to try a 12s chain on the 11s DA drivetrain because the WW types said it would be quieter. So i ended up with a new 12s chain on the bike and the used waxed one went onto my gravel bike.

I've only ridden it once, but it's the smoothest, quietest setup I've ever experienced. If the longevity lives up to the billing I'll be a convert, at least on the road.

[mmmm...pow!]

4th Step - Adjust the B-Tension with suspension at sag.

This might be the key, I set it in the stand. Will give this a try; would it still be smoother on the stand or only while riding? Pretty sure it's not the hanger as the old bike had the same issue, but maybe coincidence? I've worked on countless derailleurs over the years, but 12 speed has been super finicky. That's the main reason I ditched Eagle, Shimano was great for a while but now the same issues.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Some of you may recall that I've been pretty skeptical of chain wax, aka Queso. I try not to be irrationally stubborn, though, and good points have been made in favor of it.

So, since it's been cold here and I've been doing a bunch of bike upgrades, I decided to try out out on the road bike. A few thoughts:

1: It's just as much of a giant hassle to clean the chain like MSW recommends as I expected. It took 1 session with degreaser, then 4 mineral spirits baths, then 2 denatured alcohol baths for a used chain, but fewer for a new one. They want you to clean your cassette, rings, and pulleys just as well. It's a lot of used solvent by the end.

2: MSW dries a lot harder than the old candle wax i used in the 90s.

3: 200deg wax does not burn the fingers immediately, but it does stick to them tenaciously.

I opted to try a 12s chain on the 11s DA drivetrain because the WW types said it would be quieter. So i ended up with a new 12s chain on the bike and the used waxed one went onto my gravel bike.

I've only ridden it once, but it's the smoothest, quietest setup I've ever experienced. If the longevity lives up to the billing I'll be a convert, at least on the road.

[toast2266]

This might be the key, I set it in the stand. Will give this a try; would it still be smoother on the stand or only while riding? Pretty sure it's not the hanger as the old bike had the same issue, but maybe coincidence? I've worked on countless derailleurs over the years, but 12 speed has been super finicky. That's the main reason I ditched Eagle, Shimano was great for a while but now the same issues.

I've found 12 speed xt derailleurs to be pretty fragile. Minor impacts can bend them a bit and they'll never shift quite right ever again.

Also try shifting it with the clutch turned off. This doesn't make any sense for a "works in some gears but not others" scenario, but when the clutch gets sticky (which they all do) sometimes the shifting gets bad in weird ways.

[XXX-er]

1: It's just as much of a giant hassle to clean the chain like MSW recommends as I expected. It took 1 session with degreaser, then 4 mineral spirits baths, then 2 denatured alcohol baths for a used chain, but fewer for a new one. They want you to clean your cassette, rings, and pulleys just as well. It's a lot of used solvent by the end.

I coil the chain into the bottom of a small jar and cover with a few inches of naptha overnite, in the AM the chain is VERY clean (spotless ), drys really quick when I take it out of the naptha, a double app of Squirt and Bob's yer uncle. IME its a super effective/ easy way to clean a chain, I've done it on the last 2 brand new bikes before the drive train moves or can get dirty so all i've had to clean is the chain and Squirt it

[climberevan]

Queso update:

Road bike: another 2h ride and it's still smooth and silent. So far so good.

Gravel bike: 50 miles into yesterday the chain was unpleasantly noisy. I hit it with some Squirt and it was ok for the rest of the ride (75 mi). That is just not good enough. Yes, there was some snow and mud, but it wasn't extreme and there was no buildup on the frame. If the queso can't get through one ride, WTF?

I'll give the gravel bike one more shot. Maybe it's amazing when conditions are totally dry, which admittedly is the norm most of the year.

[XXX-er]

Gravel bike: 50 miles into yesterday the chain was unpleasantly noisy. I hit it with some Squirt and it was ok for the rest of the ride (75 mi). That is just not good enough. Yes, there was some snow and mud, but it wasn't extreme and there was no buildup on the frame. If the queso can't get through one ride, WTF?

.

the fact you took Squirt with you makes me wonder about how you applied it ?

This is not petro lube, the instructions tell you to apply squirt twice intitialy and let it dry overnight so the water can evaporate.

Squirt is wax in a water carrier, so if Squirt is not completely dry it is still just waxy water & would be easily washed off,

for shits and giggles drip a little Squirt on the work bench and watch it become wax, takes at least a few hrs

[J. Barron DeJong]

the fact you took Squirt with you makes me wonder about how you applied it ?

The instructions tell you to apply squirt twice intitialy and let it dry overnight so the water can evaporate.

Squirt is wax in a water carrier, so if Squirt is not completely dry it is still just waxy water & would be easyily to washed off

He used hot wax initially, had squirt as a back up and applied it over the hot melt when the chain got noisy.

Can’t say I have much first hand experience with hot wax in wet/mud. A couple road rides through some melting snow/slush, and on the mountain bike nothing more than crossing some puddles.

I know that in the Zero Friction testing hot melt waxes still excel in the wet/dirty ‘extreme’ test block, and the re-lube interval there is a simulated 200km flat at 250w, then re-lube, 100km hill at 250w, then re-lube, etc. They’ve also added a ‘single application longevity’ test, and while hot melt (so far only tested Silca, not MSW) isn’t at the very top, it’s still seems quite good:


Not trying to discount your experience at all, just wondering what’s going on, and hopefully someone else with first hand experience will chime in.

[XXX-er]

He used hot wax initially, had squirt as a back up and applied it over the hot melt when the chain got noisy..

that ^^ is still not how squirt works, I have watched squirt evap

which is as exciting as watching baseball

it takes at least a couple hrs (depending on temp) for the water carrier to evap

[J. Barron DeJong]

that ^^ is still not how squirt works, I have watched squirt evap

which is as exciting as watching baseball

it takes at least a couple hrs (depending on temp) for the water carrier to evap

True, but wet Squirt is still better than nothing.

However, the main issue he’s concerned about is the original hot melt application not making it through a full ride.

[toast2266]

Just sitting here laughing about climberevan totally fucking up by not carefully reading the directions to his chain lube. Can't believe the bike survived such carelessness.

[Dee Hubbs]

I try to answer most questions in this thread, but sone topics I stay far away from….

[climberevan]

True, but wet Squirt is still better than nothing.

However, the main issue he’s concerned about is the original hot melt application not making it through a full ride.

Just sitting here laughing about climberevan totally fucking up by not carefully reading the directions to his chain lube. Can't believe the bike survived such carelessness.

JBDJ correctly understands the issue. I did a textbook, meticulous hot wax with MSW on the chain. It became noisy 50 miles into a 75 mile ride. I then applied some Squirt to maintain my sanity for the remainder of the ride.

I'm well aware that Squirt is not meant to be used like this. I theorized that it would be better to use that than petro lube in case the queso failed, so I carried a tiny bottle of Squirt.

My previous lube choice (No Toil moto lube transferred into a drip bottle) routinely lasts 80+ miles on the gravel bike and 60+ on the MTB, so if Queso can't do significantly better than then the hassle/reward ratio is unacceptable.

In general, whether talking about hot wax or Squirt, lasting an entire ride is a baseline requirement, since neither can be applied properly mid-ride. My previous experiences with Squirt showed that it would fail this test when applied properly, but I had higher hopes for MSW.

I'm now wondering anew if the hype around queso-ing chains is driven by people who aren't riding very much, or only in perfect conditions. Are people really taking their chains off and rewaxing every 100 miles or less?

[toast2266]

JBDJ correctly understands the issue.

(Just to make sure we're clear here, I was kidding. I was just taking the piss out of XXX-er's insistence on reading the directions for fucking chain lube. So don't mind me - carry on with your queso experiment.)

[dannynoonan]

I'm now wondering anew if the hype around the majority of high-end bicycle products are driven by people who can't ride for shit, aren't riding very much, or only in perfect conditions.

FIFY and, yes most definitely.

[XXX-er]

(Just to make sure we're clear here, I was kidding. I was just taking the piss out of XXX-er's insistence on reading the directions for fucking chain lube. So don't mind me - carry on with your queso experiment.)

using squirt is different than a petro lube and so in like 26,010 posts it wouldn't be the 1st time some fucking dentist failed to read the instructions

TGR is a print medium so unless our camper posts something readable wtf did they really mean ?

should i care ?

would it kill your to use a winkie emoticon you stupid cunt ?

just to be clear here ^^ I was kiddding

[rideit]

Ok, shop rats, I am looking for some help finding a ‘22 Fox Float X, Factory, 190x45mm. Anyone holding?
Seems to be a rare bird. It is the only thing left to complete my badass Element build…

[toast2266]

using squirt is different than a petro lube and so in like 26,010 posts it wouldn't be the 1st time some fucking dentist failed to read the instructions

TGR is a print medium so unless our camper posts something readable wtf did they really mean ?

should i care ?

would it kill your to use a winkie emoticon you stupid cunt ?

just to be clear here ^^ I was kiddding

I fucking hate emojis. I refuse to use them.

[No winky face]

[jm2e]

Ok, shop rats, I am looking for some help finding a ‘22 Fox Float X, Factory, 190x45mm. Anyone holding?
Seems to be a rare bird. It is the only thing left to complete my badass Element build…

We should have a thread for stuff like this ……..
GTFO JONG!!!! (Insert sarcastic winking imoji here)












https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...d.php?t=344803

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[rideit]

Hey, gimme a break, I’m new here.

[rideit]

Found one!

[rideit]

Wompwompwomp