Ask the experts

[XtrPickels]

Paging XtrPickles!

My understanding would be that the fasted rides and subsequent improved fat burning are incredibly useful for long steady efforts, especially at ultra distances. In enduros you're doing a lot of short hard efforts that require glucose, but between stages there's a benefit. Hopefully the resident physiologist chimes in.

Poof!

Dan makes a great point about the particular event.
Proper training accounts for 90% of the available adaptation. Depleted training is the last 10%.

For enduro racing, proper training is all you need. The last 10% doesn't matter much for your activity.
For events 3+ hours of hard and steady pedaling, this last 10% may be useful.

Example:
For an XC racer, running foam grips and light saddles and other weight weenie parts to save a pound might make a difference. An enduro racer isn't going to notice a pound and if anything the loss of stiffness / durability are probably detrimental.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

Wow, ok thanks! Good info.

When I ride Zwift I tend to cruise around in zone 2 about 200-220ish watts. I have a hard time NOT racing though. Oh, random dude from Scotland just passed me on that climb....better kill myself chasing him. All manner of KOMs, etc I can't not go full gas.

I should probably get back into more of the structured training plans again.....I have a plan I am in now, but the last two weeks I have been saying "not now" when I log into Zwift and go complete a route or ride with a pace partner.

Either way I think I need to up my volume and lower the intensity and get a better 2/3s mellow 1/3 high intensity balance to my week.

I think I eat pretty damn well though and for the most part am cut/svelte with the nagging 1" of fat that hides a six pack. Totally a vanity thing though and not really important at all to racing bikes.

[XtrPickels]

Wow, ok thanks! Good info.

When I ride Zwift I tend to cruise around in zone 2 about 200-220ish watts. I have a hard time NOT racing though. Oh, random dude from Scotland just passed me on that climb....better kill myself chasing him. All manner of KOMs, etc I can't not go full gas.

I should probably get back into more of the structured training plans again.....I have a plan I am in now, but the last two weeks I have been saying "not now" when I log into Zwift and go complete a route or ride with a pace partner.

Either way I think I need to up my volume and lower the intensity and get a better 2/3s mellow 1/3 high intensity balance to my week.

I think I eat pretty damn well though and for the most part am cut/svelte with the nagging 1" of fat that hides a six pack. Totally a vanity thing though and not really important at all to racing bikes.

How did you determine your Zone 2?

If you haven't, I'd recommend that you do a test to estimate FTP or race up a category for an event that's 20-30 minutes long. Take 95% of that number as a quasi-ftp. Your base ought to be in the 65-70% of FTP range. Base ought to be easily sustainable for multiple hours if you're eating and taxing but appropriate if you aren't.

Initially 200 to 220 sounds high, but I do recall you mentioning your trainer calculates power from wheel-speed so that may be accurate given your trainer output.

For increasing volume, especially now that light is sparse, keep a bike on the trainer. Hop on first thing in the morning for 45 minutes, then again after work and before dinner for an hour. Doing it this way is easier than finding the time to get in 1:45 and a heckuva lot less boring. Do that 2 days a week, plus a couple longer rides on the weekend and you can be at 8 to 10 hours per week pretty easily.

With that said, there are definitely times where you should be going for the fun of it. You can only train with purpose most of the time. Taking some time off keeps you sane and keeps things fun.

[Dantheman]

One way to keep the intensity down is to keep your mouth closed and only breathe through your nose.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

How did you determine your Zone 2?

If you haven't, I'd recommend that you do a test to estimate FTP or race up a category for an event that's 20-30 minutes long. Take 95% of that number as a quasi-ftp. Your base ought to be in the 65-70% of FTP range. Base ought to be easily sustainable for multiple hours if you're eating and taxing but appropriate if you aren't.

Initially 200 to 220 sounds high, but I do recall you mentioning your trainer calculates power from wheel-speed so that may be accurate given your trainer output.

For increasing volume, especially now that light is sparse, keep a bike on the trainer. Hop on first thing in the morning for 45 minutes, then again after work and before dinner for an hour. Doing it this way is easier than finding the time to get in 1:45 and a heckuva lot less boring. Do that 2 days a week, plus a couple longer rides on the weekend and you can be at 8 to 10 hours per week pretty easily.

With that said, there are definitely times where you should be going for the fun of it. You can only train with purpose most of the time. Taking some time off keeps you sane and keeps things fun.

So Zwift has me at a 226 FTP. I did an FTP test earlier in the fall and it was maybe 220 and then after a race the game automatically upped my FTP. This is all probably meaningless because I have a ghetto whee speed based trainer that is just guessing at watts.

Heart rate zones I am guessing based on one of those online calculators (which I guess are vary vague?).

Like on my 19 mile Watopia route today with 2 sprint KOMs and two hill climb KOMs my average HR was 140 and average power only 166 (with a 605 max lol.....no way I ever actually put out 605 watts).

It's probably somewhat pointless to look at any of these numbers until I get a real trainer anyway.

Had a consult at local coach/cycling physio and was going to do VO2 max, get real FTP, HR zones etc etc......but Covid.

[Dantheman]

Great stuff, Pickles. There's also the issue that some people are just freaks and most likely you're not. When any one single individual has incredible results on extended fasts, vegan/carnivore/keto diets, etc., proceed cautiously because it's highly probable it's not ideal for you.

[jamal]

I thought your trainer did actually measure power, just that it doesn't adjust resistance? Also, 600w for a few seconds isn't that out of the question.


Since we're on the topic maybe we could clarify something about fat burning. My impression is that the harder you work, the more calories you burn. And the harder you work, the more that is coming from glycogen. But, fat is still always getting burned. Does the rate of fat consumption actually go down/stop at a certain point, or is it always happening regardless?

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

Idk, I still feel like it's some marketing BS. "Power sensor technology". How the heck does a magnet sensor measure power?

https://www.kurtkinetic.com/trainers...achine-smart-2

Zwift gets power numbers from the trainer, but I thought they were just calculated somehow based off the flywheel speed and not actual power numbers.

EDIT: I have the v2/black sensor. Which I guess measures watts. Still don't know how the hell a spinning magnet can actually measure watts, but i'm no scientist.

https://support.kurtkinetic.com/hc/e...sor-do-I-have-

[bagtagley]

That’s awesome, XP.

I only know what works for me through several years of trial and error, so grain of salt here. I do most of my rides fasted, out of convenience as much as anything. I was working on getting fat adapted through diet and kinda stumbled into the realization that I didn’t need food every time I got on the bike and that I can go for a while at a low to moderate pace without food/carbs. To Pickle’s point, my goal has always been adaptation rather than outright performance, but I’m stronger as a result. If you pursue fasted riding, plan to take in some protein on anything more than a couple hours, eat as soon as you’re done riding, and make sure to make up those missed calories, preferably with high quality, whole foods (don’t limit calories). Hard efforts are possible fasted, but you’ll suck serious wind and they’re depleting so limit those and plan to pump some healthy carbs in when you’re done.

Trying to lose that last bit of vanity fat while training is a great way to sink yourself. Work on performance/adaptation or work on getting lean. IME, trying to do both is a recipe for burnout.

[jm2e]

Sometimes when I’m tired, and my wife is pulling away from me, grinding some small cog in Eco mode, I’ll be like “Fuck this, I’m putting it in Trail mode”.
Is that similar to what you guys are talking about?
I also have a pot belly.


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[nickwm21]

Trying to swap the square taper crankset on my grocery-getter. I rounded the hex socket of one of the crank arm bolts while wailing on it with a breaker bar / Allen key.

Any pro tips on how to get that bolt out?


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[Whiteroom_Guardian]

Trying to swap the square taper crankset on my grocery-getter. I rounded the hex socket of one of the crank arm bolts while wailing on it with a breaker bar / Allen key.

Any pro tips on how to get that bolt out?


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Assuming you aren't trying to save the old crankset? Drill it out or try a larger diameter ez-out? If steel frame mabey try applying a bit of heat to the bolt with a torch?

[jono]

Yes, tension is more important than true but any decent wheelbuilder can give both.

This is true, but the reason may be deceptive. A good wheel builder uses lots and lots of tension, not the same amount on every spoke.

Because the higher the tension the stronger the wheel. Right up to the point where the wheel fails sitting still or from spoke impacts: except for sticks in the spokes, spoke tension only goes down as the wheel is loaded.

The illusion that even tension is critical comes from the fact that higher spoke tension seems more even. A 20 lb difference is huge when the average is 100, but is barely noticed at 500. And a rim will straighten out at about the same difference, regardless of the average tension.

[toast2266]

Trying to swap the square taper crankset on my grocery-getter. I rounded the hex socket of one of the crank arm bolts while wailing on it with a breaker bar / Allen key.

Any pro tips on how to get that bolt out?


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Drill bolt. If the puller threads get mangled, tap the crank off with a block of wood on the backside.

[EWG]

Great stuff Pickle. I've been waking up and going to work out in my garage first thing in Covid world, and I've been overcooking myself. I have not been eating first, which may help explain why I'm not recovering as fast as I'm used to. Well, also stress, but I can more easily fix the food thing. I'll try eating first.

I will add that you can definitely adapt your body to different intakes. I consciously trained for about 6 months to reduce the need for water intake before a 24 hour race once. It worked. That said, I was drinking and needing a LOT of water, so I may have just brought myself down to more reasonable levels. There have been a number of studies with cyclists that have shown you can train to intake mostly carbs or mostly fats/protein without a hit in performance after an adaption period. Fasting, not so much - as Pickles explains with far more detail that I could.

I'd also offer that weight training of some kind has anecdotally been the add that gets rid of the last layer of fat for already active people. I've seen it time and time again. There is science behind that also.

Having said all that, my brother is a cycling and swimming coach for pro cyclists and triathletes, and his wife is a nutritionist for the same kind of athletes, and they tell me to do stuff all the time and I rarely listen.

No nutrition or training plan can overcome stupidity. Ask me how I know.

[Andeh]

WG, I'm not a physio/trainer or anything, but you should not need to be sucking a gel every 30 min right from the start with your skill/fitness level. Your body can totally go longer than that once you get used to it. When I started riding (and was also doing some running), I was doing the same thing, because the labels on gels say to take one before activity and every 30 min after. It's not needed if you fuel properly before. I'm guessing you'll find you can go about 2 hours before you start needing to refuel. If I go for a shorter dawn ride (~2 hours), I find that a granola bar or even a slice of toast with jam is good enough. Same story if I ride at 6PM and haven't eaten since lunch time - about 100-200 calories feels enough to tide me over until dinner after the ride. A bagel and egg sandwich will get me to about 3-4 hours for morning rides. I'm not saying don't bring gels, but learn to listen to what your body is telling you about fuel needs and use them accordingly. If you don't actually need them, that's a few hundred less calories (of sugar) that you're going to be ingesting on ride days - that almost certainly will help with leaning up.

I have found that an electrolyte tab in my water bottles does help a lot though. I started doing that this spring when I was on lockdown and riding every day, and that really helped my recovery. Most of us do a poor job of hydration.

Also, speaking from that experience, ease into the consecutive training days but at the same time try to push it a little bit further. Last year, I would have really been suffering riding 2 days in a row, now I think nothing of it. As I started in quarantine, I'd do 2 on, 1 off. Then shifted to 3 on, 1 off once I didn't feel destroyed. I also would push myself to do "one more lap" on the last day before my rest. So, like if I normally would ride about 2,500 ft, I'd push for 3,200 ft on the last day before rest. Or do 2500, 3200, 4200, rest. It feels like it's a lot of the same sort of mental reprogramming that goes on with the nutrition - teaching your body that it can do more with less, and once you do, it complains less.

[Dantheman]

There have been a number of studies with cyclists that have shown you can train to intake mostly carbs or mostly fats/protein without a hit in performance after an adaption period.

Up to a certain level of intensity. Hammering enduro stages requires glucose.

[Rossymcg]

training for the uphill athlete and training for new alpinism are great books regarding all this zone 1/2 training and fueling the training. Basically the more z1 and 2 you do the more efficiant you body becomes in all the other zones due to being able to use fat as an energy source at higher out put. Removal of waste products in the muscles and better flow of blood in to the muscles. Both books I found interesting

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[ridinshockgun]

Up to a certain level of intensity. Hammering enduro stages requires glucose.

People don't always think about the effort in the downhills in something like an Enduro. I have found consistently over 1-2 years that my HR is higher on technical or challenging downhills than it was on the climb. These would be downhills that are pushing your skill level but if you're racing an enduro you are pushing hard regardless of how technically challenging the downhill is.

[simple]

Enduro is pussy shit compared to the Super D format that preceded it. We used to have a mass start where we ran to our bikes. Then after you feel like you are dying you had to try to pass people on the DH. Enduro was hard when it had climbs in it. Now it is just hard due to tech at mega speed and the rare pedaling section.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

Enduro is pussy shit compared to the Super D format that preceded it. We used to have a mass start where we ran to our bikes. Then after you feel like you are dying you had to try to pass people on the DH. Enduro was hard when it had climbs in it. Now it is just hard due to tech at mega speed and the rare pedaling section.

Ehh, it's still hard. The last race I did this year was an 11 mile return climb to the start after 4 stages of racing with a cutoff time. Lots of DH Hero bros didn't even finish the race. They did the 4 stages and then just self DQed and pedaled downhill to the bar.



I ate my usual breakfast this am and then did a 40 mile route on Zwift from 10am to Noon. Hit every sprint and hill KOM full gas. Was cruising around 170-200 watts the rest of the time. Only drank electrolytes during the ride. Feel amazing right now kinda like I could do it again this evening.

Immediately slammed two glassed of extra protein chocolate milk when I got off the bike.

[simple]

It is still hard. More fun in current format. Plus no USACycling influence. Better in many ways. Just caters to more cash flush men and women with more dh skills than fitness.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

Just caters to more cash flush men and women with more dh skills than fitness.

IDK, I disagree on that front. The people that win these races are insanely fit. Even super tech all DH races like BME at Big Sky.

[toast2266]

IDK, I disagree on that front. The people that win these races are insanely fit. Even super tech all DH races like BME at Big Sky.

The people that win any world or national level sporting event are super fit.

But if you go down to a regional level, plenty of guys winning enduro races are not particularly fit. At least compared to the guys winning regional XC races.

[simple]

We can go back and forth all day....

The enduro races are catered to amateurs who pay entry fees. Not the top pros. At EWS that isn't the case so your point is not inaccurate.

Did you know that some pros even get paid to be at these amateur races? Like fully paid...travel, lodging, whores, you name it. Ah the good old days.