Electric Bike Thread

[Redsmurfer]

Interview: Chris Cocalis talks eMTB

As the most recent US bike maker to enter the eMTB marketplace Pivot's Shimano E8000-powered Shuttle represents at least what one brand believes to be a vision of where the emerging sport is headed. We caught up with Pivot founder and designer Chris Cocalis to get the back-story on their first eMTB.

What was your motivation to enter into the e-bike market?

Actually, it was the push from customers in Europe and other global markets. We have an office in Germany and Pivot has been experiencing really good growth in Europe overall. About three years ago we started receiving inquires about an E-mountain bike from Pivot. In Germany in particular, what started as a simple request turned into a “must have.” Depending on who’s statistics you are looking at, it is estimated that for bikes over €4000, eMTB’s now make up over 50% of mountain bike sales in Germany. Even if it is only 30%, it’s still an incredibly large and important part of the market. It reached a level where dealers were telling us they were not interested unless there was an e-bike on the way. That was the motivation for initially looking at it. Beyond that, we always love a new challenge and working to be the best in any category we enter.

When did Pivot begin developing the Shuttle?

We started looking at it seriously 2 years ago and began working on potential designs and researching where things were headed.

There is a big difference when riding a the Shuttle at 19.95kg (44lbs) versus the typical 23kg (51lb) eMTB. On the assist side of things, the Shimano system was developed for mountain bikers by mountain bikers. There are other good systems in the market, but we feel that the E8000 system allows the rider to ride exactly like they would normally ride a mountain bike. There is no need to pedal a certain cadence or have to anticipate for the power to come on in a certain way. You just ride it as you would your normal bike, with the major difference being that you feel like you are having your best day on the bike.

Do you perceive the eMTB primarily as a new market growing from the sport mountain biking, or will Pivot be designing eMTBs as an integral and logical extension of the mountain bike?

That is a bit of a loaded gun. The perception is not really so much up to me. However, we are not out to add a new market beyond the sport of mountain biking. We (Pivot) are a technology, engineering and innovation driven BIKE company. We love challenges and we love making cool bikes. We wouldn’t do this project if we didn’t have interest and a strong passion for it. It’s not going to replace my non-pedal assist bikes but depending on the rider, it may. That’s up to the individual rider to decide what they are looking for in a mountain bike. Not everyone wants a fully rigid carbon fiber single speed hardtail, nor does every rider want a full blown Phoenix DH World Cup downhill bike. There’s a huge spectrum of riders, terrain, trails, etc. EMTB’s are different, but they are still very much mountain bikes. This just adds another way to have fun on a bike.

Geographically, how will Pivot's eMTBs be marketed?

Currently, the new Shuttle is for the European market only. We are assembling the bike in Germany for sales within the EU using the EU specifications. That said, we will look at the customer demand for other potential markets in the future. If you see a Shuttle in your future, let us know and we will see what we can do to make that happen. We are taking a bit of a wait and see approach to other markets.

Some say it is inevitable that eMTBs will evolve into restricted-power legal models and more powerful, closed-course racing models. Where do you see Pivot's place in the future of eMTB development?

There are companies that seem to have already entered into a bit of a horsepower race and there are companies working hard on e-motocross bikes. Fortunately, the e-bike market does have some guidelines set. A class 1 e-bike has a maximum assist speed of 25 kph (20mph in the US), has to be pedal assist (cannot have a throttle) and then it is classified as a regular bicycle. This is a constant source of debate in the US, but in a growing number of places, it is becoming the regulation. I think that this sets a nice set of parameters to work within.

We have already seen some industry leading bike brands diluting their mountain bike development programs as they focus upon ramping up for the burgeoning eMTB market. How can a small, prestigious bike maker like Pivot play both fields without falling into that trap?

I think this has a lot to do with what a company’s vision is. We are ramping up and adding to our engineering and design team so that we can do more across the board. I do know of other fairly large bike companies that have diverted resources and basically look like they’ve become an e-bike company. For Pivot, every project we do supports the others. We build on our R&D to make each bike better then the last. I think that everyone will see in the near future that the Shuttle project has in no way diluted our mountain bike development or changed our focus.

Insiders claim that eMTB sales will capture over 75% of the mountain bike market (at least in Europe).If that proves true, can you envision a time when Pivot transitions exclusively into an eMTB brand?

I think 75% is a bit of a stretch, but the numbers are still significant. Still, there is no specific category that has absolutely dominated mountain biking in this way. Some say that cycling is a sport of suffering. A lot of the draw to competitive and recreational cycling is to push yourself both in fitness and technical abilities. It’s part of the satisfaction of cycling and why certain riders are so against e-bikes. For that reason, I don’t think that 75% is a realistic number. However, for those that haven’t ridden a good eMTB: you can suffer [on an eMTB] as much as you wish. In fact, it kind of begs you to punish yourself. Suffering is a lot easier to deal with when you are having too much fun to stop.

[wooley12]

Owwww!! Hurts my eyes. What does it say/

[Redsmurfer]

We are all doomed. Ebikes are here, and nothing is going to stop them. Riders love them and are going to ride them where ever they want and it is going to cause a lot of trouble, and bring up lots of old conflict scars until land managers and laws adapt. They will also get faster, lighter, and cheaper.

[XXX-er]

50 instant electric hp, that's a serious power to weight ratio. I'd buy that blasting dirt roads all day, too bad its $12k.

And that before you modify it, so is that an electric bicycle or a motor cycle, ok for mtb trails ?

[Bunion 2020]

Ebikes are here, and nothing is going to stop them. Riders love them and are going to ride them where ever they want and it is going to cause a lot of trouble, and bring up lots of old conflict scars until land managers and laws adapt. They will also get faster, lighter, and cheaper.

Pretty much.

[mtngirl79]

We dont have to give up. We could fight for big fines for illegal use... then use that money to build more trails.

[grinch]

Fine anyone that goes outside. Big money for trails #winning #stablegenius

[smartyiak]

WOW....a company selling $10k emtbs opines that they’re just regular bikes....someone call the press!!!

And the whole “only available in Europe” lasted about 10min.



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[thefortrees]

Last time I checked there are riders who are fast uphill and others who are fast down hill. Always has been, and with e bikes, always will. What’s wrong with getting beat on the uphill, because most of us are fatter and slower than we want to be?

[mtngirl79]

Nothing wrong with getting beat everything wrong with motorcycles on non motorized trails.

[smartyiak]

Nothing wrong with getting beat everything wrong with motorcycles on non motorized trails.

I’m in the camp of: if there was no concern over trail closures, Class 1 ebikes can be considered “bicycles” in the regulatory scheme.

I have no issues getting passed...and if it would shut the ebikers up about how “they’re not bikes with motors...they’re ebikes”...then all the better!


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[gravitylover]

This kind of rational logic is not possessed by your average bike-hating Sierra Club or Wilderness Society member.

Living where you do you haven't the faintest idea of what is happening with access in other places. Oh yeah, maybe you have read about some trail somewhere getting closed but to you it is an abstract situation.
I believe you may be a Rep for a bike company. If that is correct your products will be harder to sell as more trails are closed to bikes.

I do, I've been involved in this for too long to not know what's happening. Thankfully here in the northeast we have been adding trail miles at a pretty incredible pace. Two (?) years ago here in NY we added as much as was lost west of I 25 in the previous 3 years in one shot. There's a bit of loss happening now due to stupid people doing stupid things and a whole bunch of hand wringing over e-mtb's but not much closing or banning happening yet. Unfortunately playing by the rules and advocating for them is a complete and total waste of time in most places so since there isn't any funding for enforcement (on most public lands) we'll just keep on keeping on and go and ride when and where we see fit. Pretty much as it has always been.

Yup but again, it won't likely affect my territory in a negative way.

[skysos]

We dont have to give up. We could fight for big fines for illegal use... then use that money to build more trails.

Or you could help to fight to get the rules changed to avoid any conflict, which would recruit more people into the local clubs to build and maintain trails.

BTW, there are big fines in place already. It's a $750 fine to operate a motorized vehicle on most public lands where it is banned. If you think the public agencies are going to give any of that to the local mountain bike clubs, you are delusional.

It's pretty irrelevant anyway. In 20+ years in the Tahoe basin I've never seen a ranger on the trail to actually enforce anything other than checking wilderness permits of hikers on the trail to the Desolation wilderness and in parking lots giving tickets. They have bigger issues to deal with.

[Redsmurfer]

Just heard that more than a few MMWD rangers have been spotted patrolling the Mt. Tam on Specialized ebikes that my tax dollars bought them. This means they can patrol relatively silently and get to places that they could not unless they were on loud ATVs and left obvious tracks. This sucks in so many ways, this will mandate a significant change in trail choice and strategy. Once again turn fucking strava off when riding on Tam. They use heat maps to dial in their patrols.

[John_B]

Will you please shut the fuck up. For someone that is still new to this whole thing and has no real idea what's been going on for the last 30+ years other than what you hear and read you sure do seem to feel empowered to be an opinionated bitch.

Yeah MtnGirl should shut up so instead we can listen to the men that have been biking forever tell us how it should be. Because they never sound like opinionated bitches.

Not directed at people that have been mountain biking for a long time and manage to get their points across in a productive manner.

[rod9301]

Pretty narrow minded.

What's illegal?

And since when we are supposed to obey unjust and inappropriate laws?

Like prohibition in the 20s, illegal marijuana, slavery?

If everyone would take your approach, there will be no progress.

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[GoldMember]

Will you please shut the fuck up. For someone that is still new to this whole thing and has no real idea what's been going on for the last 30+ years other than what you hear and read you sure do seem to feel empowered to be an opinionated bitch.

While I agree that she puts her points out there in a strange manner, her points for our state (WA) are correct. It's not just opinion but fact regarding the law in the state. However, what happens elsewhere is not the business of our state but of wherever you're commenting on so yeah, relevance is possibly questionable with not all areas sharing the same concerns.

[rod9301]

Pretty narrow minded.

What's illegal?

And since when we are supposed to obey unjust and inappropriate laws?

Like prohibition in the 20s, illegal marijuana, slavery?

If everyone would take your approach, there will be no progress.

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This was addressed to mtngirl's post

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[alias_rice]

This was addressed to mtngirl's post

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Well that certainly makes it less absurd to compare trail access to slavery...

[reckless toboggan]

Will you please shut the fuck up. For someone that is still new to this whole thing and has no real idea what's been going on for the last 30+ years other than what you hear and read you sure do seem to feel empowered to be an opinionated bitch.

I have been mountain biking for 30+ years, and you're the only one here who sounds like a bitch.

It's really simple.

Keep your pretend to pedal moped off designated non-motorized trails.

Ride trails where motorized vehicles are permitted, and if you feel it necessary, organize and get some of your pretend to pedal eBros to advocate for moped designated trails.

[buttahflake]

We are all blessed. Ebikes are here, and nothing is going to stop them. Riders love them and are going to ride them where ever they want and it is going to cause a lot of trouble, and bring up lots of old conflict scars until land managers and laws adapt. They will also get faster, lighter, and cheaper.

Fuck yeah! Ten years from now, think about it. Oh shit!
Riding, straight-up walls, bishes.

I’m so in

[mtngirl79]

Or you could help to fight to get the rules changed to avoid any conflict, which would recruit more people into the local clubs to build and maintain trails.

BTW, there are big fines in place already. It's a $750 fine to operate a motorized vehicle on most public lands where it is banned. If you think the public agencies are going to give any of that to the local mountain bike clubs, you are delusional.

It's pretty irrelevant anyway. In 20+ years in the Tahoe basin I've never seen a ranger on the trail to actually enforce anything other than checking wilderness permits of hikers on the trail to the Desolation wilderness and in parking lots giving tickets. They have bigger issues to deal with.

Why would I fight to allow motors on non motorized trails? I dont think motorcycles belong on non motorized trails. (I am calling a spade a spade. "Ebike" is a bike with a motor, ie, a motorcycle).

Some bike manufacturers are trying to turn non motorized trails into motorized trails so they can profit.

I'm not ok with that.

[mtngirl79]

Well that certainly makes it less absurd to compare trail access to slavery...

Its oppression, man! Discrimination!

[TahoeBC]

Several people in this thread have stated that they dont give a fuck, they will ride their electric motorcycles legal or not.

In my state they are illegal unless specifically allowed.

I would say a majority of mountain bikers have ridden an unsactioned and or a trail closed to bikes, so by your logic we should close all trails to mountain bikes?

To your point of big fines, my buddy in Bend says the fine can be as large as $6500 for riding a ebike.

[mtngirl79]

I would say a majority of mountain bikers have ridden an unsactioned and or a trail closed to bikes, so by your logic we should close all trails to mountain bikes?

To your point of big fines, my buddy in Bend says the fine can be as large as $6500 for riding a ebike.

I have never rode a trail closed to mountain bikes and all of the "unsanctioned" trails I have been on are dont ask, dont tell. If the land managers are actively trying to keep mountain bikes out, I stay out.

Times are different, advacacy is different, and electric motorcycles do not belong on non motorized trails.