Fu*king Cyclists

[::: :::]

Not by claiming that society gives a pass to assholes in cars. Note road rage legislation. But that's beside the point lost.

I would just point out that road rage legislation is happening within the bubble of stronger cycling communities and is not at all the norm in the US.

There is a lot of frustration in the cycling community that many drivers are, in fact, given a pass and that collisions are treated as "accidents" in lieu of "mistakes" or "failures to perform duty" when there is a well-defined responsibility to control the multi-thousand pound vehicle. Too many people have died as a result of the "accidents" without prosecution of the drivers. Driving is not taken as seriously as it could be because it is so easy to learn and do. A 100lb teenager who couldn't punch an adult could plow through that adult on a street corner given the right moment of lost concentration. There's even an accepted cliche about the likelihood of accidents by teenagers -- followed by actuarial data that sets insurance rates for young people.

Prosecution of these "accidents" seems pretty extreme to most people. It changes lives because of some minor lack of attention, usually not some willful intent. But that's exactly the point. The privilege of piloting a multi-thousand pound vehicle through our communities is one that shouldn't be taken as lightly as it is.

I honestly believe that, if people were required to cycle for a year before they were allowed to drive, it would have a marked improvement in driving safety statistics. I know this may not work for all people (rural locations esp), but it would establish a baseline shared experience to build from to establish the full weight of what it means to drive a vehicle.

The cycling community is starting to connect with civic groups to make safer streets and is gaining some momentum, resulting in road rage legislation, slowing speed limits in residential areas, etc. Again, in the bubble, but it is starting nevertheless.

[jackstraw]

Women that works for us passed a roadie and up the road a little bit a chicken was crossing the road (why was the chicken crossing the road? ) so she obviously stopped. This is a rural road. Anyway, not knowing which way the chicken is going, she waited for a second. The roadie (guy) catches up and starts yelling at her that "she doesn't have to watch the chicken!" Because apparently there wasn't enough room on the right side to pass...well without riding on a little dirt. She was a little upset, obviously, being yelled at by some random guy. That's just intimidating.

Generally speaking, road weenies are really a bunch of assholes. Just more proof. Yelling at a women stopped for an animal in the road.

[Buster Highmen]

I would just point out that road rage legislation is happening within the bubble of stronger cycling communities and is not at all the norm in the US.

Proof?

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_rage :

The term originated in the United States in 1987–1988 (specifically, from Newscasters at KTLA, a television station in Los Angeles, California), when a rash of freeway shootings occurred on the Interstate 405, 110, and 10 freeways in Los Angeles. These shooting sprees even spawned a response from the AAA Motor Club to its members on how to respond to drivers with road rage or aggressive maneuvers and gestures.[2]

The motivation for such legislation originates with motorists. Not saying we cyclists aren't hopping on the bandwagon.

There is a lot of frustration in the cycling community that many drivers are, in fact, given a pass and that collisions are treated as "accidents" in lieu of "mistakes" or "failures to perform duty" when there is a well-defined responsibility to control the multi-thousand pound vehicle. Too many people have died as a result of the "accidents" without prosecution of the drivers. Driving is not taken as seriously as it could be because it is so easy to learn and do. A 100lb teenager who couldn't punch an adult could plow through that adult on a street corner given the right moment of lost concentration. There's even an accepted cliche about the likelihood of accidents by teenagers -- followed by actuarial data that sets insurance rates for young people.

Prosecution of these "accidents" seems pretty extreme to most people. It changes lives because of some minor lack of attention, usually not some willful intent. But that's exactly the point. The privilege of piloting a multi-thousand pound vehicle through our communities is one that shouldn't be taken as lightly as it is.

I honestly believe that, if people were required to cycle for a year before they were allowed to drive, it would have a marked improvement in driving safety statistics. I know this may not work for all people (rural locations esp), but it would establish a baseline shared experience to build from to establish the full weight of what it means to drive a vehicle.

The cycling community is starting to connect with civic groups to make safer streets and is gaining some momentum, resulting in road rage legislation, slowing speed limits in residential areas, etc. Again, in the bubble, but it is starting nevertheless.

Bubbles not only keep things in, they keep things out.

Jesus, can you be a little more divisive? Can we have more 'cyclists are pure and motorists are the root cause of evil' memes?'

Maybe I'm not reading well, but nowhere in this thread is anyone advocating threatening cyclists by virtue of ignoring the 3 foot rule or behaving in any way threatening to cyclists. Nor is anyone advocating giving pass to motorists who create accidents.

So, once more with feeling: being an asshole as a reaction to assholes doesn't fix anything.

FWIW, I do what I can, give 6 feet or more in passing, keep aware of cyclists in general. I still see lots of cyclists being assholes.

[::: :::]

i don't disagree with you
look at my first post in this thread
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...85#post4793585

the reason i'm participating in this thread is to offer a perspective that many folks seem to be blind to despite their statements of how they watch for cyclists etc

my intent is not to be divisive -- if it's coming off that way, then i'm sorry i'm stoking fires i shouldn't be

[Buster Highmen]

At the root of this topic, motorist road rage, Trump, dysfunction and most of humanitys failings is both stupidity and malice.

Being an asshole encompasses those things.

So let's try really hard not to be assholes out there.

At least I do.

I may not be all that successful at it and not being an asshole has its price and is mostly its own reward.

[jono]

Not by claiming that society gives a pass to assholes in cars. Note road rage legislation. But that's beside the point lost.

Of course not by that, but that's why I specifically quoted his assertion that he would, personally, run over anyone that runs him over. That's personally taking action right there. Give credit where it's due.

[Buster Highmen]

Of course not by that, but that's why I specifically quoted his assertion that he would, personally, run over anyone that runs him over. That's personally taking action right there. Give credit where it's due.

That's asshole reciprocation and credit for it is given.

[::: :::]

Jesus, can you be a little more divisive? Can we have more 'cyclists are pure and motorists are the root cause of evil' memes?'

i have to come back to this because i don't think that's at all what i did

i ID'ed a perspective that no one here has written about on the full weight of responsibility of driving. There's a lot of honest interest in not being an asshole by those who are writing here, but there's also a lot a blindness to the casual impact of driver decisions. Everyone will say, "of course I take my responsibility seriously." But then we all drive 10mph over the limit and bitch about slow drivers in the left lane. (just one example)

I'm not claiming perfection for myself or cyclists in general. I am citing the responsibility of driving in terms that most drivers don't typically consciously consider. God forbid I say it this way, but it's like owning a gun...it's not a casual responsibility; it has a higher level of responsibility. ...and the larger the vehicle, the more it applies...mass, and all that physics has to say about it.

[Buster Highmen]

i have to come back to this because i don't think that's at all what i did

Of course not.

It just comes off like your claiming the cycling community is the main force behind road rage legislation. The frustration is not unique to the cycling community. Like the cycling community is devoid of assholes.

i ID'ed a perspective that no one here has written about on the full weight of responsibility of driving. There's a lot of honest interest in not being an asshole by those who are writing here, but there's also a lot a blindness to the casual impact of driver decisions. Everyone will say, "of course I take my responsibility seriously." But then we all drive 10mph over the limit and bitch about slow drivers in the left lane. (just one example)

While all that's quite true and probably deserves it's own thread, this thread is about cyclists being assholes.

Rather than accepting this as the obvious truth, many members of the cycling community sidestep the issue and continue to employ that tried and true diversion tactic to point fingers at the asshole motorists in justification for being assholes.

I'm not claiming perfection for myself or cyclists in general. I am citing the responsibility of driving in terms that most drivers don't typically consciously consider. God forbid I say it this way, but it's like owning a gun...it's not a casual responsibility; it has a higher level of responsibility. ...and the larger the vehicle, the more it applies...mass, and all that physics has to say about it.

OK, how about acknowledging that some cyclists are assholes. Many motorists are assholes as I've rererereiterated and concede that, yes often I'm an asshole. But I try to recognizes the fragility and exposure of cyclists here and on the road, give lots of room on passing and understanding their defensiveness.

I don't think I'd have bothered to participate except that I live just off a road that is used by cyclists in frequently inappropriate ways when there's a 6 foot shoulder and yet they ride 4 abreast, unnecessarily blocking the lane.

[mcski]

So you're saying cyclists should carry guns when they ride?!?

[Buster Highmen]

So you're saying cyclists should carry guns when they ride?!?

Please refer to my ass-ertion that everyone should arm themselves to the teeth and shoot at will. This way, everyone will die and there's won't be any problems.

[::: :::]

OK, how about acknowledging that some cyclists are assholes.

i'll refer you again to my first post in this thread

i'm not condoning the lady's actions above, and I will give you that cyclists have serious assholes in their midst

[::: :::]

It just comes off like your claiming the cycling community is the main force behind road rage legislation. The frustration is not unique to the cycling community.

Going back to reread my post...you are quite correct. I couldn't see that before because of my bubble.

I should probably have said the recent growth in enthusiasm for cycling in our cities has bumped the issue up the charts.

[Buster Highmen]

i'll refer you again to my first post in this thread

Right, however that has not been the most common reponse and it is couched in the usual fingerpoint to the others poor behavior.

FWIW, I used to road ride in the Snoqualmie Valley and got run off the (shoulderless) road twice, the second time took a pretty good tumble. Now I can't road ride anymore without having massive anxiety attacks. So I avoid riding on busy roads as much as possible. I used to love road riding but I just don't do it anymore because of the exposure. My old Holdsworth w/campy NR is gathering dust.

So I vote with what I can do in the positive light: give space when behind the wheel, vote for bikelanes, show some love for cyclists in ways I can. Just don't be an asshole to me because of what some other asshole has done to you.

[::: :::]

My first post was more about walking a mile in someone's shoes than finger pointing per se, but I guess you could read it that way. Given your experience, I'm a little surprised to see that you read it that way. I guess I need to work on my communication skills.

[Buster Highmen]

Just remember, I'm pulling for ya; we're all in this together.

[smartyiak]

...because it is so easy to learn and do.

I agree with much of what you write...but could not disagree more with this part! If it was, my blood pressure would be much lower on the drive home!

[Tryingtostaywarm]

I commute six days a week in downtown Denver about ~10miles each day, as it is much easier to bike than to drive/deal with parking etc. One route from home to gym and back(4-5ish miles depending on route), then home to work and back(also 4-5ish miles). Different directions.
My take as a driver who hates cyclists and as a cyclist myself.
This 100% urban riding/driving I am talking about.
As a rider:
I try to follow traffic laws to the best of my ability but my consensus is over 50% of my urban riding bretheren do not give a fuck about traffic signals etc. Blowing stop lights, cutting directly across all lanes, riding the opposite direction of flow of traffic in bike lane(I see this at least every other day) not getting over, and staying in the middle though there is a huge shoulder/bike path/empty parking spots etc.
Do I run red lights when I am sitting there at 8am, and every rider but me is blowing the lights. Yes, I absolutely do on occasion because it is dumb as shit not to get on the band wagon and go with the flow, if anything I am worried about getting hit by another rider because I am NOT blowing the light.
We put it on ourselves. I get it there are very good riders out there but unfortunately, here in the city at least, the majority that I see as a daily rider myself are giving everyone a bad rap.
Most common no-give-a-fuck urban riders can be seen on
1. Fixie bike, no helmet, maybe a Bern helmet, no light even though it is dark, earbuds in, messenger bag with some vinyl records they just picked up, and they are going to do the fixie "I don't have brakes" dance at every stop.
or
2. B-cycle rented retard girl w/ sundress on + no helmet, and no situation awareness besides the fact she is late to her Tinder date at Avanti, can be seen riding in traffic while she navigates with her Ipod 6 in one hand.
At the end of the day, these same people lack common sense, are probably horrible drivers, and when they get on a bike that does not enhance any of the mentioned attributes...they just stay dumb.

[BmillsSkier]

^^^
This is nearly to a T the two main groups of cyclists I encounter on the reg. Urban assault agro-Armstrongs and clueless hipsters.

Page 30 fellas. I'm so proud.

Just remember, only a cyclist would have you run over a live chicken on a country road than inconvenience their hobby.

[mtngirl79]

It would make me happy if they would decide on laws that cyclists have to follow.. ei, they follow the rules cars follow except in certain situations..

Then, someone needs to enforce those laws so a cyclist breaking a law is just as likely to get a ticket as a driver.

[doebedoe]

It would make me happy if they would decide on laws that cyclists have to follow.. ei, they follow the rules cars follow except in certain situations..

Then, someone needs to enforce those laws so a cyclist breaking a law is just as likely to get a ticket as a driver.

+1. Laws that make sense for all modes of transit on streets (cars, bikes, pedestrians) would clarify things. Currently most laws are just cars and pedestrians. A legal construct that misses an important segment of users is bound go fail.

As for cyclists getting a ticket being "as likely" as drivers. I'd be interesting in know, per mi traveled if cars or cyclists get more tickets. I'm sure it varies by jurisdiction, but given the massive amount of drivers compared to cyclists, i'd be surprised if it doesn't even out. I know lots of drivers and lots of cyclists who have gotten tickets.

[mtngirl79]

most drivers follow most driving laws most of the time.. its not super common to see a driver driving the wrong way down a one way street as it is to see a cyclist riding the wrong way down a bike lane, or how often do you see a bike with no lights versus a car with no headlights???

Ticket the cyclists enough to make them follow the laws...

[FLS]

It would make me happy if they would decide on laws that cyclists have to follow.. ei, they follow the rules cars follow except in certain situations..

Then, someone needs to enforce those laws so a cyclist breaking a law is just as likely to get a ticket as a driver.

Says the driver for a living. Please, if you pedaled for a living, you'd be ragging on all the bullshit drivers.

Thats the way it goes. Asshats on both sides. Try not to be an asshat on either side.

ps.... I did not intentionally chose the phrase "asshat" because I knew you are good at making hats. I am about a 7 1/2 and kind of partial to a small pom pom or two on a short line, if you are so inclined.

[mtngirl79]

one of my best friends spent years as a bicycle messenger. he doesn't ride his bike like an asshat in traffic.

[doebedoe]

most drivers follow most driving laws most of the time.. its not super common to see a driver driving the wrong way down a one way street as it is to see a cyclist riding the wrong way down a bike lane, or how often do you see a bike with no lights versus a car with no headlights???

Ticket the cyclists enough to make them follow the laws...

How often do you see a bike speeding vs a car speeding?

If you want everyone to get ticketed equally, you can't pick and choose which laws apply. Most drivers break at least that one law every single day for a significant portion of their drive.