4FRNT Renegade ~ Hand built in SLC.

[123ski]

Can somebody help me figure out my new quiver?

I just stumbled upon a pair of new 186 Renegades at a price I couldn't refuse. Bought them on the spot.

About me:

Height: 5'10"
Weight: 180lbs
Age: 30


Existing "Quiver" (originally was supposed to be a 4 ski quiver, but after several bad years of snowfall + marriage I ended up skiing on my rockers 90% of the time):

190 Armada Magic J with Pivot 18
192 Rocker2 108 with Guardian 16
179 K2 Kung Fujas with Jester

The Magic J was supposed to be my everyday pow ski for Snowbird until conditions firmed up, but with the amount of firm days we've had lately it turns out I ended up my my Rocker2 108 the majority of the time.

The Rocker2 was supposed to be 50% touring 50% inbounds. Turns out I used it almost 100% inbounds... Getting a little tired of skiing inbounds on an AT binding.

Kung Fujas is my all mountain Park ski. In reality it's too soft to do anything but ski the Park on. I end up doing that less and less now.

Ski:
75% inbounds (Snowbird/Alta)
15% backcountry (LCC/BCC)
10% Park (PC/Brighton)

About Me: I used to ski 90-120 days a season, UNTIL LAST YEAR. The reality of growing up and not being in grad school anymore means that I skied about 30 days last year (the least amount of days since 6th grade). I'm hoping with a lighter travel schedule this year I'll be able to get more dawn patrols or early evening tours under my belt.

I ski pretty fast. I like charging through crud. The right ski makes crud almost as fun as pow if it let's you ski fast enough.

I like to have fun in between big lines. e.g. If I drop into Great Scott or Death Chute, I won't make very many turns until the bottom when I'm setting up to hit the pine tree roller. However, it's unlikely that you'll ever see more do more than a cork 7 or backflip. Slow 360's are much more common.

I do like skiing switch. In fact, sometimes I'd rather switch 180 off a jump or cliff than anything.

I don't care about park. If I spend a full day in the park this year I'll be shocked.

I do use those Kung Fujas on pure groomer days as well, like when I go to Deer Valley or something.

Goals:

I'd love it if these renegades have a spot in my quiver if possible. After skimming this thread they seem to be the ski to use on powder days and 1-2 days after, but then you should put them away. Is that the right classification? Even at a place like Snowbird?

I'd prefer my every day driver To NOT have a touring binding on it.

I want my touring binding to be burly enough to ski inbounds and I'm not interested in owning AT specific boots yet.

I'd like my touring ski to be jibby enough to have fun on BC jumps and cliff setups.

I don't mind having 4 skis, but now that I'm lucky to ski 30 days a year it seems pointless to have to choose what to ski on every day.

I don't mind keeping or selling any of my current skis. I'm open either way. If I do buy something I'd prefer it be from the following brands, in no specific order:

ON3P
Moment
4Frnt
ARMADA
ROSSIGNOL
SALOMON
FACTION
ATOMIC

My original reaction tells me to put touring binding on Magic J.. But that may be too much ski for touring if I plan to dawn patrol more this year (who knows if that will really happen)... Put pivots on renegades. Either keep rocker2 and put pivots on them or replace them with Bibby, Jeffrey, or Devastador. Keep Kung Fujas for Park ski. (if I got Jeffreys I could probably get rid of Kung Fujas)

I'd love any and all input.


Skis I've Owned and Liked:

190 Moment Bibby (it was too soft in the tip, otherwise one of the best skis I've ever used)

190 Moment Garbones - only demoed these for a few days, but they felt like they'd go fast through anything.

188 Rossignol S7 - too directional for my every day ski. On the other hand, I was 25 when I owned these so maybe I don't ski switch as much as I used to.

185 Armada JJ (needs to be stiffer longer and fatter though... Thats what she said)

190 Armada Magic J (too much for most conditions, one of the most fun skis for deep days ive ever put my hands on)

Salomon Rocker2 108 - gets hooky in the tip sometimes, otherwise this ski feels like it can do almost anything.

182 4Frnt VCT - this was my first fat ski I ever owned. I felt like I could straight line anything at snowbird on these things. Of course I couldn't, but they were awesome.

193 4Frnt EHP beer graphic. Only had these a few days. Really liked them for the few days after a storm. Felt like I could ski anything on them. Got a few personal first descents on them back in 08-09.



Skis I've Hated

186 Line Prophet 130 - no rocker and short turn radius. Gross.

195 Rossignol Super 7 - for my height and weight these pushed the boundary for what I'm able to throw around. I really felt like I was forcing these around the resort.

185 Volkl Chopstick... At least the he'll bent was poppy, these things felt like wet noodles. No fun at all.

182 Line Pollard Pro.. Same as above.

188 foam core Megawatt

185 Atomic Blogs. Even as my touring setup these were too soft. Felt like a park ski.

[Judo Chop!]

looks like the renegades are pretty different from your current quiver - so I guess that means that they'll have a pretty defined spot.

Rens are awesome for inbounds pow and crud blasting - yeah, like you say pow days and a day or so after. They might feel like a handful to push around until you find the sweet spot and then they come alive. feel super stable but lively. they are pretty centre mounted so they should spin well, but I'm not the guy to comment about that.

I have touring bindings on a pair of rens, but honestly these things like blasting so fast that they eat up too much vertical too fast that I feel like I don't get enough turn/hike ratio. They'd be PERFECT with that setup if I had a sled I think though, but unless you are super fit and keen to skin tons of vertical in a day, or have a specific aggressive charging alpine objective, keep a second ski for touring. I prefer touring on my hojis so I can choose to either charge or milk it for turns, and they are a bit more versatile for snow conditions.

I love my rens.

[TAFKALVS]

get the red ones.

[123ski]

looks like the renegades are pretty different from your current quiver - so I guess that means that they'll have a pretty defined spot.

Rens are awesome for inbounds pow and crud blasting - yeah, like you say pow days and a day or so after. They might feel like a handful to push around until you find the sweet spot and then they come alive. feel super stable but lively. they are pretty centre mounted so they should spin well, but I'm not the guy to comment about that.

I have touring bindings on a pair of rens, but honestly these things like blasting so fast that they eat up too much vertical too fast that I feel like I don't get enough turn/hike ratio. They'd be PERFECT with that setup if I had a sled I think though, but unless you are super fit and keen to skin tons of vertical in a day, or have a specific aggressive charging alpine objective, keep a second ski for touring. I prefer touring on my hojis so I can choose to either charge or milk it for turns, and they are a bit more versatile for snow conditions.

I love my rens.

Very helpful. Thanks for your insights. Sounds like I may end up liking renegade so much on pow days that I'll get rid of Magic J.

[stormyMonday]

Very helpful. Thanks for your insights. Sounds like I may end up liking renegade so much on pow days that I'll get rid of Magic J.

You may. Or you may not. You might want to actually ski them before you start buying and selling skis to fit them in a quiver. The Renegade is really a unique ski and not necessarily the ski for everyone. Personally I love mine and I'm betting you will too but just be prepared, it is a unique ski. Not sure it will fit a "daily driver" spot but I think they are actually surprisingly versatile.
Like Judo Chop!, I gave touring on the rens a try and just never really found it to be a great touring ski. Although they skinned fine, I ended up putting pivots on mine and leaving them as an inbounds ski but I liked the ski shape and style so much that I also bought Hojis and so far I'm pretty impressed with them as a touring ski (only a couple days on them in late season conditions).
If you're only going to have one touring ski, I'm not sure I'd want to make it a ski with a 127 waist. As you said, that's probably going to be a little too much ski for a one ski touring quiver. Anything wrong with leaving the touring bindings on the Rocker2?

[123ski]

You may. Or you may not. You might want to actually ski them before you start buying and selling skis to fit them in a quiver. The Renegade is really a unique ski and not necessarily the ski for everyone. Personally I love mine and I'm betting you will too but just be prepared, it is a unique ski. Not sure it will fit a "daily driver" spot but I think they are actually surprisingly versatile.
Like Judo Chop!, I gave touring on the rens a try and just never really found it to be a great touring ski. Although they skinned fine, I ended up putting pivots on mine and leaving them as an inbounds ski but I liked the ski shape and style so much that I also bought Hojis and so far I'm pretty impressed with them as a touring ski (only a couple days on them in late season conditions).
If you're only going to have one touring ski, I'm not sure I'd want to make it a ski with a 127 waist. As you said, that's probably going to be a little too much ski for a one ski touring quiver. Anything wrong with leaving the touring bindings on the Rocker2?

Thanks for the feedback @stormy

I'm okay leaving the touring bindings on the Rocker2, I'm just not sure I want a touring binding on my defunct daily driver. Although its (for the most part) been fine so far as that binding is surprisingly robust.

When people say "unique" about the Ren...from what I've read that means you have to ski it a little more centered than what a lot of people are used to and then it will do anything you want it to (in reasonably soft conditions)... is that correct? What skis does it best compare to?

[shafty85]

looks like the renegades are pretty different from your current quiver - so I guess that means that they'll have a pretty defined spot.

Rens are awesome for inbounds pow and crud blasting - yeah, like you say pow days and a day or so after. They might feel like a handful to push around until you find the sweet spot and then they come alive. feel super stable but lively. they are pretty centre mounted so they should spin well, but I'm not the guy to comment about that.

I have touring bindings on a pair of rens, but honestly these things like blasting so fast that they eat up too much vertical too fast that I feel like I don't get enough turn/hike ratio. They'd be PERFECT with that setup if I had a sled I think though, but unless you are super fit and keen to skin tons of vertical in a day, or have a specific aggressive charging alpine objective, keep a second ski for touring. I prefer touring on my hojis so I can choose to either charge or milk it for turns, and they are a bit more versatile for snow conditions.

I love my rens.

I would agree that the Rens slay, but I love touring on them (have inserts in them for both alpine and tech setups). Yeah, they like to go fast, but I find they are often too much fun to leave behind. Got a pair of Hojis this offseason for more versatile days, but will still be taking the Rens on deeper days.

[Mustonen]

When people say "unique" about the Ren...from what I've read that means you have to ski it a little more centered than what a lot of people are used to and then it will do anything you want it to (in reasonably soft conditions)... is that correct? What skis does it best compare to?

That's a part of it, but I don't think it's the most unique part about skiing them. When people say "ski them centered" about different skis I'm not sure they always mean the same thing. In the Ren's case, it means drive the part of the ski under your foot, not the tips. Tip, then rage. They're like a loose handful. They need firm steering control, but a light touch. Which is deceptive, because if you are able to provide that firm steering control with a light touch they're great in variable snow as an (almost) every day ski. If you can't (or don't like the feeling) then they're a powder day only ski.

My first run back on Rens after skiing a more traditional pair of skis always feels like I'm skiing a pair of windshield wipers.....

[123ski]

That's a part of it, but I don't think it's the most unique part about skiing them. When people say "ski them centered" about different skis I'm not sure they always mean the same thing. In the Ren's case, it means drive the part of the ski under your foot, not the tips. Tip, then rage. They're like a loose handful. They need firm steering control, but a light touch. Which is deceptive, because if you are able to provide that firm steering control with a light touch they're great in variable snow as an (almost) every day ski. If you can't (or don't like the feeling) then they're a powder day only ski.

My first run back on Rens after skiing a more traditional pair of skis always feels like I'm skiing a pair of windshield wipers.....

Interesting. That description gets me thinking a lot about the ARG and Donner Party. Both of which I owned and loved.

Obviously there are several other features that make the Ren dissimilar from both of those skis though.

[Bobcat Sig]

It's been said; go ski both and sell the ones you don't like or won't ski as much - if that ends up being the case.

I love my Rens so much that I had both the 186 and the 196 in my quiver. They represented a very narrow point in said quiver. I ended up selling the 186s as they overlapped too much with the other sticks in the bin. I keep the 196 for big days, big lines and the deepness. Having moved back to the PNW, I wish I would have kept the 186s. The 196s should slay Revelstoke when I head up there at the end of December for some heli-bumps.

FWIW, both skis are/were setup to accept touring bindings. I never did a lick of touring on them. Way too heavy for me. As others have said, it's certainly possible.

It's a rad ski. "Hold my dick!"

[kc_7777]

Reread the entire thread.

Just bought 186cm Rens again.

2015s this time (had 2013s before). Duke'ing them. For short tours.

Pretty dang excited.

K

[BushwackerinPA]

Renegadess cliff notes

accels at

3d snow especially heavy, upside down, wind slab, wind crust, manky, deep heavy crud.

ok at

light powder, getting places on nice groomed snow, holding an edge when you hit alittle bit of hardpack, shallow crud

awful at

actually skiing packed snow, dust on crust

surpremely sucky at

hard bumps, and goat paths

[gramboh]

Anyone know of any online retailers with deals on new 186 Renegades? Don't care what year. I'll sell my OG 2010-11 for cheap when I get new ones . Gonna miss that graphic though.

I realize I'll likely have to wait until after new years but thought I'd ask.

[kc_7777]

I got last year's 2015 186's for $579 shipped from Bentgate? Tried and tried to find them cheaper all fall. Could not. But I sold some skis and had the cash so I just bot em.

Gonna take em out at Baker today. Supposed to snow all day.

Mounted with Dukes at 88 from tail.

[todug27]

Is the assumption that vibeveil is pure ski industry marketing non-sense? Or has anyone tried it out and found a tangible improvement in chatter reduction? I never felt that the Ren needed dampening...

[Judo Chop!]

Is the assumption that vibeveil is pure ski industry marketing non-sense? Or has anyone tried it out and found a tangible improvement in chatter reduction? I never felt that the Ren needed dampening...

yeah... but the new ones are blue!

[gaijin]

Is the assumption that vibeveil is pure ski industry marketing non-sense? Or has anyone tried it out and found a tangible improvement in chatter reduction? I never felt that the Ren needed dampening...

I doubt any ski builder would deal with the addition of one more potential fail point (the bond between layers) to add something like vibeveil to their skis as a marketing ploy. The Ren is a cult-classic. I have no doubt it was tried by their R&D extensively before put into production.

[DGamms]

Not sure about the 4FRNT R&D dept, but I will say I disagree about prior comments alluding to the damp feel of the Rens. I had a metal Katana 184 cm and 2nd gen Ren 186 cm quiver for multiple years. The Katanas were significantly more dampened, and they made hard variable snow much easier to ski than then Rens. Could be the 112 vs 122 waist with, could be the taper on the Rens. But I think it was mostly the metal layup of the Katana.

No doubt, in pow or soft 3D snow, the Rens are a special ski. If 4FRNT achieved the goal of making a more dampened feeling Renegade with VibeVail this year, then color me interested.

Afterthought: I want someone to do the old Ren vs VibeVail Ren vs Down LTD Showdown 115M (with metal) ski comparison.

[Mustonen]

Not sure about the 4FRNT R&D dept, but I will say I disagree about prior comments alluding to the damp feel of the Rens. I had a metal Katana 184 cm and 2nd gen Ren 186 cm quiver for multiple years. The Katanas were significantly more dampened, and they made hard variable snow much easier to ski than then Rens. Could be the 112 vs 122 waist with, could be the taper on the Rens. But I think it was mostly the metal layup of the Katana.

I've never considered them NOT damp, but whenever it occurred to me at all I figured the full reverse didn't help in that department with hard/uneven snow. Rather than camber helping spread some of those impacts/vibrations over the length of the ski, you're taking a greater percentage of it right under foot. Haven't squared that against significant time on other full reverse skis, though.

[gramboh]

I got last year's 2015 186's for $579 shipped from Bentgate? Tried and tried to find them cheaper all fall. Could not. But I sold some skis and had the cash so I just bot em.

Gonna take em out at Baker today. Supposed to snow all day.

Mounted with Dukes at 88 from tail.

Thanks. I'm up in Canada so gonna take a 40% pounding on currency exchange right now, hoping to find some for $400-450 that would be awesome. 4FRNT has some blems/old versions on their website but 196cm only. I'll keep my eyes peeled.

[tuco]

Not sure about the 4FRNT R&D dept, but I will say I disagree about prior comments alluding to the damp feel of the Rens. I had a metal Katana 184 cm and 2nd gen Ren 186 cm quiver for multiple years. The Katanas were significantly more dampened, and they made hard variable snow much easier to ski than then Rens. Could be the 112 vs 122 waist with, could be the taper on the Rens. But I think it was mostly the metal layup of the Katana.

No doubt, in pow or soft 3D snow, the Rens are a special ski. If 4FRNT achieved the goal of making a more dampened feeling Renegade with VibeVail this year, then color me interested.

Afterthought: I want someone to do the old Ren vs VibeVail Ren vs Down LTD Showdown 115M (with metal) ski comparison.

It's the rubber in the laminate that makes the Katanas damp, not the metal, so I could see VibeVeil doing what they say it does. Haven't skied 'em though

[DGamms]

Compared to other subtle reverse camber designs like the Katana and even the EHP, I find the Rens significantly less dampened. Again, by dampened I'm talking about the ability of the ski to absorb vibration while riding over rough 3D snow.

Tuco, you don't think metal laminates contribute to the dampening of a ski? What do they do then?

Awaiting the old Ren vs VibeVeil Ren showdown review this season from someone lucky enough to have skied both

[auvgeek]

Yeah, really curious how the new construction (semi-cap/ABS sidewall + VibeVeil) will change how they ski compared to the OG wood-sidewall version I knew and loved.

[tuco]

Compared to other subtle reverse camber designs like the Katana and even the EHP, I find the Rens significantly less dampened. Again, by dampened I'm talking about the ability of the ski to absorb vibration while riding over rough 3D snow.

Tuco, you don't think metal laminates contribute to the dampening of a ski? What do they do then?

Awaiting the old Ren vs VibeVeil Ren showdown review this season from someone lucky enough to have skied both

Metal mostly provides torsional rigidity/ edge hold, which without the damping effects of the rubber would be negated. The metal itself is the least damp component of the laminate.
Also, its 'vibration damping'.

[DGamms]

Hmmm, I didn't know that. Always thought metal = damping. Thanks man