OFFICIAL I70 BITCH THREAD....

[hatchgreenchile]

Shred, I just checked Greyhounds website for this Saturday...
Only one westbound option, and that’s at 1215pm, arriving to Frisco at 2pm. $38 roundtrip.
Then you get to ride the Summit Stage for 20 minutes to Breck, assuming you don’t miss the transfer.
Nobody will take the bus if its slow and inconvenient, especially if it costs more than driving up solo...
Express routes from Union Station to Keystone at early AM hours? Now we’re talking.

[Name Redacted]

Shred, I just checked Greyhounds website for this Saturday...
Only one westbound option, and that’s at 1215pm, arriving to Frisco at 2pm. $38 roundtrip.
Then you get to ride the Summit Stage for 20 minutes to Breck, assuming you don’t miss the transfer.
Nobody will take the bus if its slow and inconvenient, especially if it costs more than driving up solo...
Express routes from Union Station to Keystone at early AM hours? Now we’re talking.

See, it's too inconvenient! That's the whole point! It'll never be convenient enough for the general public to be economically viable. Not everyone wants to go to the same resort, no one wants to stop at every resort on the I70 corridor. No one wants to transfer busses, no one wants to pay more than they would for gas in their own car for the trip.

There was a ski train to WP/MJ for years, wonder why it's not around anymore?

[Name Redacted]

I think this might be what you guys are imagining:


But the reality of a bus is that you'll still be stuck in the same traffic, only now you'll be on a bus. There's no shortcuts. Just like 285 isn't getting any shorter, busses ain't getting around traffic, and neither will actually reduce traffic on the corridor.

[Foggy_Goggles]

a. so upper middle class front range skiers probably are a viable political voice. Call your congressman. I mean it is fairly obvious that Colorado's whole economy is a house or cards built on constant population growth largely attributable to proximity to world class winter recreation. Right?

b. convince said congressman that without some kind of public subsidy designed to make I-70 mountain corridor traffic more manageable during peak times, the house of cards will collapse. It is no more contrived that many of the other publicly funded projects. Right?

No I'm no public policy wonk, but for reference hear are the same old data points that always come up.

1. The mountain town communities benefit from the i-70 traffic. The cheap pass buying, picnic lunching, internet equipment shopping, day trippers are not exactly paying the bills either at the mountain or in town. The town council are comprised primarily of realtors, property managers, and owners of other businesses that benefit from second home owners and destination tourists. The real estate market is buoyed by front rangers looking to purchase a second home partly to escape the traffic. Right?
2. The bus thing has already been tried as a public business. Check this article from 2011 http://blogs.denverpost.com/thebalan...ki-areas/2170/ All the links are dead. To my knowledge, none of these entities made it. Why, it is neither financially attractive nor does it save any time.

A bus solution must be subsidized and will require an HOV lane. Think about it, who is going to pay $50/person to sit it traffic with everyone else. So really, there are two questions to be answered. Who is going to provide the subsidy and how are you going to convince all of the non-HOV traffic i.e. commercial traffic to go with your plan?

[hatchgreenchile]

Current means of mass transit are terrible, that’s also my point. Of course nobody was going to take the ski train when it’s 2+ hours one way and $60+ roundtrip. There isn’t a line out the door for Greyhound (notorious for being shitty BTW) and their 2pm arrival to Frisco. There are a select few private bus lines that run I70, but are more expensive than a solo driver and stop a few times adding to the travel time. The private companies just don’t have enough people utilizing the service to spread out the costs.

Mass transit shouldn’t be a sacrifice. When built and operated effectively, it’s a convenience. Yes, you would likely have to subsidize through the early years, but compared to a light rail, Maglev, or this onload/offload freight train thing, the cost is exponentially lower with a bus route than the alternatives.

I’m not sure why it hasn’t been explored yet, but my gut would say that CDOT/RTD is tied up financially on Fastracks and metro improvements and is a bit scared off by the 100 mile corridor commitment. Ultimately, you may need a bus lane to make the thing work efficiently, but again, this is still way cheaper than the alternatives.

[FatChance]

So really, there are two questions to be answered. Who is going to provide the subsidy and how are you going to convince all of the non-HOV traffic i.e. commercial traffic to go with your plan?

I am only being slightly facetious when I suggest that it might be cheaper and easier to build a new ski mountain east of Denver than getting any kind of meaningful upgrade to I-70 and/or 285 traffic capacity at any time in the foreseeable future.

Of course the real problem is out-of-control population increase along the Front Range, not highway capacity to mountain recreation destinations, but that is a whole different thread.

[Foggy_Goggles]

So for $39 you get a ride to and from Loveland or Copper? http://www.frontrangeskibus.com/ Would you do it? What about if there was an HOV lane and it saved you an hour each way?

[hatchgreenchile]

With a 60 minute time savings, absolutely would consider it at this price point.

However, I wouldn’t pay double my fuel rate (solo driver) with no time savings. I think they have a tiny fleet, so there are minimal economies of scale present. Only way you'll get those discounts is with an RTD fleet.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Talk to me about the economies of scale related to a fleet of buses. It would seem to me to be a high variable low fixed cost business. Sure you'd be able to spread marketing and admin costs over a larger customer base but bus costs, drivers, fuel etc. would vary linearly with the number of buses.

All I'm saying is that, in my opinion, a hypothetical of $20/round trip with a close to two hour total time savings and variable departure times would be closer to the reality needed to make it viable. And that would be for a solo driver.

How would you feel about an HOV lane during peak travel times?

[Name Redacted]

You guys think you are in a Super Mario game with warp zones and shit if you think a bus will get you somewhere an hour faster for only $20.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Come on, play along! It's called a hypothetical. Society is full of all kinds of easy fixes that somebody else should implement to solve my problems. This bus thing keeps coming up. I'm all like "hey look, there already is a ski bus...sort of". And then it's like, "Whoa...its kinda expensive...and slow!".

And then we do a little market research from the comforts of the keyboard. If the service can't be provided profitably for the market price, it is probably not a viable business. Then what? Change the product (HOV lane = faster) and beg for a subsidy (less $$$). Or just come to the realization that the I-70 circus during peak travel times is just not that big of a deal. It's like bitching that the airport is busy the day before Thanksgiving. Guess what, people keep flying on that day. The airports don't build an extra terminal to make the customer more satisfied. They basically say, we don't care.

So here we are. Traffic sucks and anybody that have any ability to do anything about it says "We don't care". For every person that says "fuck it" and stays home, somebody else takes there place in line.

[hatchgreenchile]

Foggy, I don’t think the EOS for a bus line compare to other industries for those exact reasons, but the main point is that it will cost a hell of a lot less for RTD to add new routes to their current offerings then for a new startup to do the same.

At the very least, you can demo the bus concept for nothing. Next winter, do a few express lines from Wooly or Union to WP with some coaches. You’ve got the new EB toll lane to work with. Start rates at $25 roundtrip. See what happens…

If there is a more cost effective alternative, I’m all ears, but I haven’t seen anything that could be comparable.

[simple]

Make the Epic Pass $7000 [emoji14]

[knumbskull]

You guys, CDOT is rolling out its own bus lines soon.

http://www.vaildaily.com/news/142812...enver-vail-bus

[Name Redacted]

Foggy, I don’t think the EOS for a bus line compare to other industries for those exact reasons, but the main point is that it will cost a hell of a lot less for RTD to add new routes to their current offerings then for a new startup to do the same.

At the very least, you can demo the bus concept for nothing. Next winter, do a few express lines from Wooly or Union to WP with some coaches. You’ve got the new EB toll lane to work with. Start rates at $25 roundtrip. See what happens…

A bus packed with $25 skiers and gear will lose money, even with low gas prices. Nobody will use it because an RTD bus will go 45mph and probably get stuck chaining up in G-town. Not to mention the wear and tear on a commuter bus designed for driving around a city, not the mountains.

People will be all sad they missed first chair, then got home at midnight, blahblahblah. How are you going to fit 50+ people WITH GEAR on an RTD bus for a two hour drive?

The Summit Stage can barely get people to ride all but a few routes and it's fucking FREE, AND takes you right to the slopes of every resort in Summit!

[Foggy_Goggles]

A one-way trip to Denver from Vail will cost $17.

Early projections call for between 20 and 30 people per day to ride from the mountains to Denver. Ford said the idea is for the route to ultimately recover about 40 percent of its costs through fares

transit service is aimed at people who need to do business in the Denver area. The service will run only on weekdays, and, for now, there’s only one round trip per day planned. The return trip will leave Union Station at 6 p.m., and is scheduled to stop in Vail and Eagle at 8:20 and 8:55 p.m., respectively. That means anyone who wants to take the bus to Vail for a day on the hill would have to spend two nights here

Sounds sick! I-70 is going to be a breeze!

[hatchgreenchile]

A bus packed with $25 skiers and gear will lose money, even with low gas prices. Nobody will use it because an RTD bus will go 45mph and probably get stuck chaining up in G-town. Not to mention the wear and tear on a commuter bus designed for driving around a city, not the mountains.

People will be all sad they missed first chair, then got home at midnight, blahblahblah. How are you going to fit 50+ people WITH GEAR on an RTD bus for a two hour drive?

The Summit Stage can barely get people to ride all but a few routes and it's fucking FREE, AND takes you right to the slopes of every resort in Summit!

And if that’s the result, you move on. If the bus is full, then its worth exploring further. I’d be interested in the counts of people doing the Boulder to Eldora route, although there isn’t a traffic problem there.

Knumb’s link is the kind of stuff that would appeal to many. $35 roundtrip to Vail in a little over 2 hours with shitters, WIFI and comfy coach seats? Sign me up.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Holy crap dude! You think the bus is a great idea. We get it. Yeah for $35/rt. for 2hr. travel time during peak time, I'm sure you wouldn't be the only one taking the bus. You know what that requires? A giant subsidy and an HOV lane.

[hatchgreenchile]

Holy crap dude! You think the bus is a great idea. We get it. Yeah for $35/rt. for 2hr. travel time during peak time, I'm sure you wouldn't be the only one taking the bus. You know what that requires? A giant subsidy and an HOV lane.

Well, my first choice would be an EPICGondola, but VR hasn’t returned my phone calls about it…

[char]

Seems like you could subsidize alot of bus rides with the ~20 billion to build a RORO train. And if people wouldn't use a bus, why would they use a train?

I remember riding a Greyhound style bus to Mt Hood Meadows as a kid. I seem to remember it working well.

[Foggy_Goggles]

^^^Times change. Most front range kids from the skier demographic don't even take the bus to school. People are spoiled. What used to be normal is now ghetto. Most of use probably had linoleum floors, laminate counter tops, got driven around in a 10 year old station wagon and skied on used equipment. It ain't like that these days.

[summit]

Seems like you could subsidize alot of bus rides with the ~20 billion to build a RORO train. And if people wouldn't use a bus, why would they use a train?

Because with a train they won't sit in traffic, and they can even bring their car to go somewhere besides where the bus dropped them off.

Your actual cost to drive a mile is not the $0.15-$0.20 in gas. Oil, maintainence, tires, wipers, repairs, and fraction of the vehicles value as you use up its life. You save >$0.50 per mile if you car is on RORO train. So yea, I would pay $75 for a roundtrip (~110mi) on the train from Summit to Denver with my car even if there was no traffic! I could work, surf, sleep, whatever...

Don't forget the RORO takes SEMIS and that is a steady revenue source BOTH DIRECTIONS all week long, year round, instead of building light rail or bus lanes to ameliorate 12 hours of one direction peak traffic per week a couple of months per year.

[powtario]

I popped my I70 shitshow cherry last Friday with 1.5hrs east tunnel to Idaho Springs. Do you guys actually deal with that every weekend?

....Vibes+++

[WTF is dat]

last friday was especially fucking terrible, powtario

[This End Up]

it might be cheaper and easier to build a new ski mountain east of Denver than getting any kind of meaningful upgrade to I-70 and/or 285 traffic capacity at any time in the foreseeable future.

Lets run a tow rope up the north face of that dump you see on the way to DIA.

There was a ski train to WP/MJ for years, wonder why it's not around anymore?

I wonder if the ski train will be viable again after RTD finishes upgrading union station and all the proposed light rail lines have been built. But that is still taking a train to Denver, then transferring to a train to WP/MJ.


Personally I’m a fan of drill baby drill. Drilling new highway tunnels that is, here are a few options:

- Make 285 a viable option with a tunnel from Jefferson/Michigan Creek area to Tiger road near Breck, underneath Georgia pass.

- A ridiculously long I-70 tunnel from Georgetown to Silverthorne, avoiding most of the snow. The hazardous trucks could go through the Eisenhower tunnel.

- A tunnel from Nederland to Winter Park area. This would test public’s appetite for tunnels. Boulderites are expected to oppose anything like this publicly, but privately they might think; “Access to the mountains is the main reason I moved here, and I-70 does suck”